* Rough Transcript *

Understanding Soft Fascination

Brendan: Soft fascination is. Like your mind is wandering, but not in an anxious way. It’s not like I’m panicking and jumping from one stressor to another. Stressors might come up, but they’re not the dominant role. Right? So soft fascination is when we are feeling more at ease, more kind of peaceful and chill and balanced, like it’s restorative. It often happens when we’re in nature.

And it’s something that we don’t get enough of. It’s restorative, it helps restore our attention. It helps restore our focus. It helps us to kind of balance our emotions.

Introduction to Embracing Intensity Podcast

Aurora: Welcome to the Embracing Intensity podcast. I’ll be sharing interviews and tips for gifted, creative, twice exceptional, and outside the box thinkers who use their fire in a positive way. My name is Aurora Remember Holtzman. After years of feeling too much, I finally realized that intensity is the source of my greatest power.

Now, instead of beating myself up about not measuring up to my own [00:01:00] self imposed standards. I’m on a mission to help people embrace their own intensity and befriend their brains so they can share their gifts with the world through the Embracing Intensity community, coaching, educational assessment, and other tools to help you use your fire without getting burned.

You can join us at embracingintensity. com.

Hello.

Welcoming Brendan Mahan

Aurora: I am super excited to welcome Brendan Mahan back on the podcast. He always brings such thoughtful, grounded insight, and this conversation is no different. We dive into burnout, soft versus hard, fascination, screen time, and so much more.

This episode veers a bit from my usual structured interview or guest speaker [00:02:00] call and that it’s much more free flowing and I share more personally myself in the process.

Before we jump in, I wanted to quickly introduce a couple of helpful concepts that Brendan talks about during the episode.

Concepts of Wall of Awful and Default Mode Network

Aurora: The first being his wall of awful. Which is a model that he created to describe the emotional barrier that builds up when we repeatedly struggle with tasks, especially ones tied to shame or failure, every time we fail or hit resistance, we add a brick in the wall until it becomes so overwhelming that climbing over it feels nearly impossible. You can find a fabulous two-part YouTube summary on how to A DHD with Brendan and Jessica McCabe.

He also talks about the default mode network, which is the part of the brain that kicks in when we’re not actively focused, like when we’re daydreaming or just letting our minds wander. It helps us process and integrate experiences.

But for folks with A DHD, it can also get overactive and lead to things like [00:03:00] distraction, rumination, or mental noise. Brendan talks about how tapping into it intentionally through calming activities he calls soft fascination, can actually help us rest and reset. This conversation really helped me to reflect on what rest actually feels like, and I hope it helps you too.

I am looking forward to our next guest speaker. Call with author Carolyn j Sumlin on Collective Liberation on Saturday May 3rd, come join us in the embracing Intensity community. Enjoy.

Hello. It’s great to have Brendan back to talk about a variety of things. This one’s gonna be a little bit different format because it came up in his A DHD essentials group. We brought up. He brought up something about hard fascination versus soft fascination, which I’ll have him explain in a second.

But it got us talking about rest that’s actually restful. And he suggested we get on a call and I [00:04:00]realized all of this stuff is things that I’ve been processing right now and I would love to have a conversation with someone who’s processing a lot of the same things right now. So glad to have you back, Brendan.

Brendan: Yeah, thank you for having me on.

Discussing Brendan’s Upcoming Book

Aurora: So first to get started, what, one of the things that triggered that was that you have a new book coming out, so I’d love to hear a little bit more on where you’re at with that process because I’m super excited about it. I’ve been looking forward to it for years.

Brendan: Yeah. And you’re gonna have to keep looking forward to it for a little while, unfortunately.

So the release date looks like it will be September, 2026. Okay. So it’s coming, it’s just not quite yet. And it’s called Overcoming the Wall of Awful. It’s about my wall of awful model. We are, we’ve chapters one through six are finished chapter seven. I have like two or three sentences left to write for when I’m done here.

Each chapter at the end of it has like five takeaways and I have to write three of [00:05:00] the five takeaways on chapter seven. And then nine and 10 are written. Eight is a little in process. We’re not exactly going in order, but we will be done with it. On our version of a rough draft should be done April, may, like the end of this month, beginning of next month.

And then we’re gonna give it out to beta readers and have them kind of give us some feedback and they want it July 1st and then they take it and they do whatever edits they’re gonna do, give it back to us, and then we have to flip it back to them in, I’m not sure how long, probably a month or so. And then it’ll be, the book will be done. And then it comes out. So between. I dunno.

Sometime before then it’ll be all marketing and sort of getting the word out and all of that stuff that I kind of know how to do and kind of don’t know how to do. So I’m in this like, pretty soon I’m not gonna know what I’m doing anymore, and I’m gonna be learning a lot in terms of how do you market a book?

What does that look like I’m hoping to get a TEDx out of the deal

and those kinds of things to kind of push it. And then the book will come out and [00:06:00] then it’s like, now what do I do now that I have a book out? Like what do I do with that and how does that work? High expectations for the book.

I met with five publishing companies that all had pretty high expectations of what this book could be.

Mm-hmm.

So hopefully they’re right. And hopefully it turns out to be a hit.

Aurora: Absolutely. One of the things that I really appreciate about your work obviously on the Walla Waffle, but just in general, is that you have such a great way of conceptualizing things in a way that’s tangible and your

Thank you,

your gift for metaphor is fantastic. So I’m sure

there’s a bunch of

Brendan: them in the book.

Yeah.

There’s stuff in this book that I haven’t shared publicly that like

Yeah.

Heard me say before and I’ve said a lot of stuff.

Yeah.

Some and some of the stuff I’ve said is in there too. But there’s a lot of stuff in here that’s not, I haven’t made a deal of.

’cause I was saving it for the book.

Aurora: Yeah. Yeah. That’s awesome. Well that’s great. And I know I’ve been looking forward to this for years. Yeah. ’cause it was pre pandemic, right?

Mm-hmm.

I,

I was using your videos when I was working with some middle schoolers who had a DHD, anxiety, [00:07:00] all that stuff.

And I found it a great tool to help them kind of look at their blocks and then help figure out how to get through it and all of that. And I remember, ’cause you had offered to actually talk to my middle school group right before the pandemic. I just thought that was so sweet of you that you had offered.

’cause I know you’re ridiculously busy. So, I really appreciated that and it, I’ve just found it a really great tool for helping people kind of look at what their blocks are, where they came from, and then how to get over it. So I’m very much looking forward to that.

Brendan: Thank you. Yay. And

Exploring Hard and Soft Fascination

Aurora: so, and so one of the topics that came up specifically recently that triggered this conversation was you did a short little live video in your group on what you called hard fascination and soft fascination.

So I’d love to have you share a little bit more about that.

Brendan: Yeah. And I didn’t make this up right, this is chapter seven of the book.

Mm-hmm.

Chapter seven is climbing the wall, right?

Mm-hmm.

So like, it takes us that long to get to it, but it is what [00:08:00] it is.

Mm-hmm.

I was actually talking to a friend of mine named David Ell, who’s a, neuropsychologist out my way, and he’s done, he’s in the A DHD world, maybe not as deeply as we are, but he sort of does stuff.

He works with PEI a lot. And I was talking to him, I wanted to make sure that I had the default mode network, right? That I was like, I’m gonna go to the person who knows more than I know. I’m pretty sure I have it right. I did have it right. And he brought in this idea of hard and soft fascination and sort of distinguishing between the two and how they work.

And the default mode network is heavily soft fascination. So soft fascination is, it’s like your mind is wandering, you’re kind of chilling, but it’s not like meditating, right? Meditating is kind of more hard fascination because you’re trying to steer your thoughts. You’re trying to be in control of stuff, so you’re focused, right?

Even though your mind is being allowed to wander, you’re still regulating it in some capacity.

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Soft fascination is. Like your mind is wandering, but not in an anxious way. It’s not like I’m panicking and jumping from [00:09:00] one stressor to another. Stressors might come up, but they’re not the dominant role.

Right. So soft fascination is when we are feeling more at ease, more kind of peaceful and chill and I don’t know, balanced, like it’s restorative. It often happens when we’re in nature, so we’re off walking in the woods or something and listening to the birds sing and looking at the ripples in the water and the light dappling through the leaves and all that kind of stuff.

That’s soft fascination. Or when you’re petting a cat or a dog or something and that’s what you’re tuned into, but you’re not really focused on it. You’re just kind of petting this animal and your mind is going where it’s going, but you’re also feeling, connected and tranquil and that kind of stuff.

So that’s soft fascination. And it’s something that we don’t get enough of it. Like I’ve said, it’s restorative, it helps restore our attention. It helps restore our focus. It helps us to kind of balance our emotions. It’s [00:10:00] connected to the default mode network. Like the default mode network is activated when we’re in soft fascination.

I know there’s some folks out there who call the default mode network, a bad thing for people with A DHD. I don’t exactly subscribe to that. Like, yes, the default mode network can lead to rumination and anxiety and worry and all those things. If we don’t steer it well, but if we steer it, then we get the restorative properties of it.

And the default mode network is important because it allows us to process emotions and it supports learning. Like we learn a lot faster in default mode network than in any other way. Maybe hyperfocus.

Mm-hmm.

And it’s necessary to learning. Like we learn better if we grant ourselves time for it.

But you gotta kind of shepherd it a little bit. Get out into nature, be petting a cat, listen to music that will kind of guide you in the right emotional place, those sorts of things.

Aurora: Awesome.

Practical Tips for Soft Fascination

Aurora: And do you have any things that you’ve found are [00:11:00] helpful for getting into that mode? Especially if you’re one who tends to multitask?

Brendan: On my end it’s about making time for it.

Mm-hmm.

Right. So I kind of multitask when go to the default mode network when I’m using soft fascination, so I do it a lot by going and walking in the woods, like that’s a heavy, soft fascination thing for me.

But I also live in Massachusetts, so like, I don’t have nearly enough months in the year where that’s a thing that actually makes sense, right? Because I’m walking through freezing mud or something and it’s just like not a plan.

Aurora: Yeah. Northwest here, so Pacific Northwest.

Yeah. Same idea,

Brendan: right?

Same kind of weather and climate. But there’s that, it’s like petting my dog will work all, sometimes just kind of lay down on a bed or something, or on the floor. And I intentionally make sure my phone is somewhere else. ’cause I’ve learned that, like I’ll pick it up ’cause we’re gonna, we’re gonna have to do some phone vilification during the course of this conversation.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Another thing that I’ve started [00:12:00] recently, I’ve only been doing it for a couple of months and I, it’s early on enough for me that I’m not consistent enough about it yet. But when I walk in the woods, one of the things I do is I carry this 40 pound sandbag. It’s kind of like a duffel bag with handles on it, and it’s got a bunch of sandbags in it that total up to 40 pounds.

And the, a little while ago I was like, deep pressure is a thing that’s really useful. That thing is about the size of my torso, so I just lay down and put it on me. Like, I just lay it on my chest, stomach, like the long way. And then I just lay there and I’m kind of experiencing the pressure of this sandbag.

And that’s, there’s a little bit of soft fascination there too. ’cause I’m not super focused on it. I’m just like, this is here and I let my mind wander and go wherever it goes. But the. It’s almost like a fidget, like it’s almost this other sensory experience is allowing me to fidget less and be less squirmy and I should get up and go do this thing.

Like it reminds me to stay there and I don’t just impulsively get up and go do [00:13:00] a dish or eat a cookie or something. So that’s another thing that I’ll do. It drives my wife crazy, but I could hug my wife forever and just enter soft fascination. But that’s not how it works for her.

She’s not a person who’s physical touch is her love language. So I don’t get to hug her nearly as much as I would like. But if she’s down, that’s a place where I can kind of drift off. So yeah, those are probably most of the areas where soft fascination is gonna happen for me.

Aurora: That, you know, it’s funny you brought that up because it caught me thinking about the concept of lingering and how different people have different types of lingering. And I remember. Years ago there was some book where they were talking about people with a DHD have a difficult time with lingering.

But what I realized is people have different ideas of what that is. Right? And so I was having this conversation last week with someone who really loves fishing.

Mm-hmm.

And I said something about walking and he was like, yeah, I have to have like a purpose or whatever walking’s not my thing I have, to be doing [00:14:00] something.

And I was thinking, for me, that’s kind of how I feel about fishing. Like if you’re sitting there, I mean, I’m sure there’s other factors involved, but that is more goal oriented I guess. Whereas the walking, I’m physically doing something, but it’s really, for me, the best way to actually like be able to have that soft focus. ’cause I’m moving and taking action, but it’s not necessarily goal oriented. Unless like you’re hiking to a summit or something. But most of my walks are just kind of gentle,

 Mm-hmm.

You know, observation. But it’s just that concept of lingering and that like the types of things that people with a DHD find to be doing something versus not is interesting to me because it’s so varied.

Brendan: Yeah. Back in my younger days, like all the way back to when I was in college, I used to say that fishing and golf were the American version of meditating. Right. Because there’s a lot, and now that I’m older and no more, like there’s a lot of space for soft fascination

mm-hmm.

In those two [00:15:00] activities.

Like that’s why they’re compelling for some people, right? And also like you’re not being listened into when you’re golfing. So I’m sure there’s plenty of business people who are golfing so they can have some high level meeting with no one around, but yeah. But those things kind of grant some soft fascination and so too to things like cleaning, right?

Like wiping down a countertop, you’re not really thinking that much when you’re wiping a countertop, drying dishes, you’re not really, maybe when you wash ’em you are, but drying them, like you’re not super tuned into making sure this dish is dry. And even like coloring and jigsaw puzzles and that kind of stuff, those are all gonna lend themselves to soft fascination.

Aurora: Yeah, I always wish that I could feel that way about cleaning. I envy the ones who do. I have been more into like crafty things, so I mean, building with Legos and I have like those diamond art dot things that I’ll do but I also multitask. I’ll have like something on in the background or mm-hmm.

I’ll do it while I’m listening through a podcast edit and that sort of thing. [00:16:00] So, but yeah, those are things that, like crafty stuff that definitely I’ve found really helpful. One of the things I think I’m with you on the not being able to get out in nature all the time. So that’s one of the problems I have in the winter is if I feel like getting out for a walk, it’s like rainy and gross out.

Mm-hmm. And I’m not really feeling, you know, I don’t necessarily like getting soaked cold.

Brendan: Yeah. Yeah.

Aurora: So. Yeah, finding other things indoors is, has been a challenge. I know. This whole weekend I had a lot of great conversations and it was I was feeling really good and I’m such an extrovert that while I’m engaged in those conversations, I’m energized.

But then I got home after my hike and I don’t think it was the hike. I think it was just, I don’t know, it just hit that wall.

Challenges of Screen Time and Contaminated Time

Aurora: And sometimes too, I think when you have that, when you’re being pushed for like work or you have all these urgent things and then you have this space, I found myself basically kind of veg on the couch and not [00:17:00] really, you know, doom scrolling and this is where we’re gonna get into that.

Because I just didn’t have the energy to get up. I should have, done some laundry or done some cleaning or there’s all these things I should have done. And I think there’s a couple concepts that come to my mind with that. One being the screens, which I know you have lots to share about.

So I definitely wanna hear that. And then the other being contaminated time, you know that concept where basically

Brendan: No, I don’t What, what do you by that? Oh, you don’t,

Aurora: oh, well, great.

Yeah, teach me.

So I think it’s bridged Schulte it’s her book is called Overwhelmed.

Mm-hmm.

And she talks about contaminated time and that’s when you’re spending time on one thing, but then your mind is preoccupied with something else, so it’s not really restful. Mm-hmm.

And so for me, where that happens a lot is where I feel like. I’m too exhausted to do anything productive, so I’m resting, but the type of rest that I’m doing isn’t really restful because it’s, you know, on a screen.

Yeah.

Or it’s, [00:18:00] whatever. And so finding that balance of rest that’s actually restful. The walking is great, but that’s a short amount of time. Then I get home and I’m having a hard time focusing on anything ’cause I’m tired. It’s not that I’m opposed to resting. I definitely wanna rest and I wanna honor my need for that, but the way that I might be drawn into resting might not be the most productive.

Brendan: Yeah. And, and so a few thoughts on that. Right. One, when it comes to contaminated time like that, that immediately sends me to my wife, who she gets chronic migraines. She’s got a knee that’s all injured. She had ACL. MCLI don’t know, whatever the knee tendon is. She had surgery on her right knee, so now her left knee hurts.

’cause that’s just how that goes. When you get surgery on one knee, the other one usually eventually starts hurting. And so when her other knee’s hurting and when she’s in pain, it can really add to her suffering it contaminates her time, right? She’s thinking about when is this [00:19:00] gonna stop?

I’m sick of this being feeling this way and it, I don’t like falter for it, but it certainly is. G is, she’s suffering more than she maybe needs to. I wish I could give her my approach to stuff and just be like, eh. Right. And a lot of that is my A DHD, right? I just forget that that’s a thing I should be concerned about.

So then I don’t, and I’m not concerned about it, which isn’t necessarily great either. ’cause there’s important things I should stay worried about that I don’t worry about and then they don’t happen. Absolutely. But like it all, but in other ways it’s useful, right? Like she may we pay the bills ’cause that’s her job and she will stay on top of it ’cause I won’t.

Mm-hmm.

But also that skill of hers makes her pay more attention to this knee pain. So it’s contaminating her time, right? It’s making things harder. And that’s a component to the wall of awful too, right? Where if we have this thing that’s bothering us and we continue to fret about it and perseverate on it, it’s worse when we get there.

When we actually have to face it, it feels bigger than it actually is. ’cause we’ve added all these bricks that didn’t need to get added ’cause we allowed our contaminated time [00:20:00] to stick 15, 20 more bricks on there.

Mm-hmm.

And sometimes if we’re worried about something enough, like we’re carrying those bricks with us, right?

So they’re kind of weighing us down and making other things harder. And then when we actually go to do the task that has been bothering us this whole time, and we climb that wall of awful, when we get to the top, we find out that we’re not really at the top. ’cause I have to take all those bricks outta the bag that I’m carrying and stick those on top of the wall and then climb a little higher before I can actually get over it.

And that stinks.

Mm-hmm.

So like that contaminated time, it’s a thing to pay attention to. ’cause it doesn’t necessarily serve us, even though it might feel like we’re doing something, it might feel like, well, I’m worrying about it, so that must mean I’m doing things and you’re not though.

Aurora: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So that brings us to the question of with the screen time and how

mm-hmm.

Because specifically you were talking about the hard fascination versus soft fascination and Yeah. How screen time and doom scrolling is often hard fascination [00:21:00] and it

Brendan: just is, it feels like soft fascination, but it’s not, it’s hard, far hard fascination.

Aurora: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So I’d love to hear more about that and if you have any thoughts on moving away from that.

Brendan: Yeah.

Impact of Social Media on Mental Health

Brendan: So the phone back in the day, right, back in the eighties and nineties when I was a kid, like I would’ve to wait in line at the supermarket and I would just wait in line at the supermarket, and as a result, I’m soft fascination, right?

I’m in mind wandering mode. My, my brain is just going wherever. That’s not how it works anymore. ’cause now you’re in line at the supermarket and you pull out your phone and you’re looking at your phone and you’re doing that stuff, right? Even half the time people walk through the supermarket with earbuds on listening to podcasts or music or whatever.

Music is better for soft fascination. Hard fascination is podcasts and stuff. Music may or may not be. And so it’s not great. Like all of our downtime, all of our sort of mind wandering mode, time is ripe to get stolen by our phones. The phones just want to jump into [00:22:00] those spaces ’cause we’re bored.

You kind of have to be like, you gotta know how to do that, right? We gotta relearn how to be bored. And so I recommend, like I have, when I work with some of my clients, I’m like, just this week, leave your phone in your car when you go places, not even for the sake of getting soft fascination, but just to see how many times you tap your pocket.

And wonder where your phone went and have a little, what do I do? What do I do with it? Right. Just to give some feedback to yourself about how much of a hook this phone has on you. And they come back and they’re like, yeah, Brendan, you’re right. Like, oh my God. I kept having little moments where I was like, where’s my phone?

Or I went to take it out and I didn’t have it. Like yeah, just, I don’t care what you do with that. I just want you to know that it’s there. You can decide you’re just gonna keep your phone in your pocket all the time and that’s okay. Or you can decide you don’t like it and start trying to put the phone down, that’s okay too.

But knowing that we’re losing all of this mind wandering mode, time and all of this soft fascination time to our phones is [00:23:00] critical. And then we can start playing with it when we use our phones and we can start to go, wait, is this doing anything for me? I know I’ve had times and I’m scrolling through, I don’t know, like Twitter or Instagram or something, or threads and I’m just like.

This isn’t useful. The one that gets me the most actually is the YouTube shorts.

Yeah.

Oh my God. Like, I’m just like, oh, that one’s over. I’ll go to the next one. That one’s over. And it’s fast. And then I’m like, I feel yucky. Like my head hurts and I, why don’t, why am I doing this?

I’ve gotten better at like, not doing that. Yeah. But one of the things that happens with social media which we’re usually accessing through our phone, not always, but typically, or through an iPad or something, is we’re doing a whole lot of transitions in a really short amount of time.

Mm-hmm.

Reading a book, we sit there for a while in that same book, writing an essay or something or whatever. Like, we’re doing that grading papers, right. Cooking a [00:24:00] meal, like we’re in this mode for a while, and we’re in the same kind of emotional state ish, or, and we at least know what emotions are coming up.

Right? Like if you’re grading papers as a teacher, you’re like, well, I know I’m gonna have a little bit of frustration and I might have a little bit of disappointment when I get to this kid. ’cause they struggle. And like, I might be frustrated with myself for not doing something right. Because none of the kids are getting the concept that I wanted them to get.

Like that’s stuff you kind of expect, right? You know what you’re getting into. But when you pick up social media, you don’t really know what’s gonna happen. ’cause you’re just gonna come across whatever somebody wrote.

Mm-hmm.

And it might be delightful. It might be tragic, it might be motivating, it might be disheartening.

It might make you angry. It might make you sad. Right. And more often than not, it’s making people angry or sad or something like that. ’cause that’s what gets clicks. That’s what gets attention. So those kinds of posts are promoted more by the algorithm.

Mm-hmm.

And it’s not good. Like it’s [00:25:00] just not healthy.

So we’ve gotta be more tactical and intentional with our social media use and be more thoughtful about who we’re following and not following and those sorts of things. And I’m to the point where I’m thinking about having multiple social media accounts on like Blue Sky or Threads or something so that I can be like, ’cause my stuff is a mess.

It’s like sometimes there’s mental health stuff and sometimes it’s political stuff. And then there’s this guy that I just find funny and here’s current events and like, they’re not all the same.

Mm-hmm.

And as a result, I am going all over the place with my emotional experiences.

Mm-hmm.

And they don’t all let you kind of silo in the way that I would prefer to be able to silo.

Yeah.

So it’s just a thing to pay attention to. Like, how is this stuff making me feel? How many transitions am I having to make? How is that gumming up my cognition and I’m spending extra energy while every transition I’m losing a little bit more energy and a little bit more attention. And if we’re transitioning every 15 to 20 seconds, that’s.

Intense.

Aurora: [00:26:00] Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It’s funny ’cause I realize like, my TikTok is mostly neurodivergent stuff, but it can be like a lot of brain heavy, you know, if you’re in a time of needing relaxation. So I have one Instagram account that I kind of like trained on, cute dog videos, cat videos and stuff, so I know, exactly what you mean.

Sometimes you wanna have like an account that’s trained on a mindless or, funny humor or whatever. Yeah, I get that.

Totally.

Brendan: Yeah. And like I think I need to make one that’s just trained on current events.

Mm-hmm.

So I can steal myself in advance for whatever it’s I’m looking at.

And I don’t have to experience that stuff outside of that one account. That’s kind of the direction I’m heading in. It’s protect, yeah.

Aurora: Yeah,

Brendan: for sure. More restorative. Yeah.

Aurora: Yeah, no, I agree because for me, I’ve focused on accounts that have actionable steps and, you know, hopeful

Brendan: mm-hmm.

Aurora: Ideas and things that you can do. But I kind of avoid things that are actually talking about the exact, what’s happening now, [00:27:00] which is not good either, so that’s actually not a bad idea. I know it kind of makes me think of the concept of like super stimulants

Brendan: mm-hmm.

Aurora: that Screen and drugs and things that are like that super stimulant versus something that’s stimulating in a more gentle way.

And I remember it hearing that screens and that sort of thing are super stimulants and so they kind of have that spike. I think it was that one where I heard it was Stuart Shanker, the self reg guy.

Mm-hmm.

But yeah, it really caught me in terms of like, there’s certain things that are energizing, but then there’s things that, they’re super stimulants, so they may feel energizing in the moment, but then it leaves you feeling worse in the end.

Brendan: Yeah, yeah. And it’s tricky, right? Because a lot of neurodiversity, right? So giftedness, A DHD, autism to some degree, those big signals as Cam Gott would say, [00:28:00] are the things we’re gonna notice, right? That’s the stuff we’re gonna actually pick up on those. So the super stimulants are big signals, right?

They’re gonna drown out the lower signals, and so we have to make an effort. To go after the quieter stuff and the more gentle stimulants. More often I’ve taken to reading, I used to read almost exclusively on Kindle. I’ve taken to reading a paper.

Mm-hmm.

Just to have a more gentle experience and have a different experience than my phone.

’cause a Kindle and a phone are, they’re not the same thing, but they’re kind of the same, they’re the same interface at least.

Mm-hmm.

And so a book is, it’s a different kind of interface. It feels slower, like the turning of a page slows you down as opposed to tapping a screen on a Kindle.

Mm-hmm.

And if the page doesn’t turn immediately, like I’m hitting it and tapping it hard and I can feel the like, different energy of that as opposed to, oh, lemme turn the page.

So even that kind of stuff as a way to be a little gentler with myself.

Aurora: Mm-hmm. [00:29:00] Absolutely.

Reflections on Conferences and Community

Aurora: Well, one of the other things that I wanted to make sure to. Catch up about was, I feel like the last time I had you as a guest, you did talk about the wall of Awful with my community, which is on the podcast and the full discussion in my membership.

But that was like during the pandemic, I think,

Brendan: probably.

Aurora: And so I think we haven’t really, like we caught up a little bit at the conference, which I, am super grateful for you. Actually, before I get to the burnout part, I do wanna share that, recently, I talked about the neuro diversion conference, which we missed you at.

And I was comparing it to the A DHD conference, which it is what it is. It’s what it’s designed for, which is a much bigger, more professional type oriented thing. But what I found was, I think if I hadn’t known you and Mark, I would’ve probably. Felt very isolated. I had a couple other people that I had known a little bit that I got caught up with.

And Anita Robertson and I became [00:30:00] friends through that, which was great.

Anita’s

Brendan: great. Yeah.

Aurora: Yeah. She let me stay at her place, which was awesome.

Oh, dope.

So totally glad that I went. But I definitely felt a lot of the time that I would’ve felt very isolated if I hadn’t already known you guys.

And I know you were like super busy, so you took some time that first night to introduce me to a couple people and I really appreciated that. And I think I ended up hanging out with the men’s support group more than anyone else, just because Mark is just so

the good

Brendan: guys. Yeah.

Aurora: Open and kind and just always made me feel welcome and never like an extra, you know, person.

But it was funny because at the neuro diversion conference I just like followed some random group of people to dinner and felt totally welcomed and like made friends. And Ari Scott, I don’t know if you know her or Rie Rie Scott. I do. She’s the h ADHD entrepreneur and she is just got this like major energy and she like, puts her arm around me and Danny Donovan was taking pictures and she’s like, Hey, get a picture with my new bestie.

And then the next day I find out she’s the [00:31:00] keynote after Jessica. I had no idea who she was. I just, you know, it just was a whole completely different vibe. it was just great. And even just there was a moment with Danny was talking to a young woman who wants to get into content creation, and then I got in the conversation and it was a great conversation about different, like how she had someone that she really looked up to who validated her idea, and then when she left the young woman was like, thank you so much for taking the time out to talk to a little person like me.

And I’m like, I mean, like, I’m not, but then again, we’re all little people. I do have, we’re all the same

Brendan: size. Whatever size you want that to be, like.

Aurora: I know. Exactly. And, and the thing is like. Yeah, it just, that kind of warmth about it. But one of the things I’ve appreciated about you is even in the online interactions, there’s just like this genuine warmth to your interactions.

And what it brought up to me, this whole experience was that concept of [00:32:00] transactional relationships.

Mm-hmm.

And I was just reading, what’s that book? The Four Pivots, it’s called, it’s a book about activism.

Mm-hmm.

But it’s called the Four Pivots.

Transactional vs. Transformational Relationships

Aurora: And he talks about transactional versus transformational relationships.

And I realize that a lot of my problems with any kind of business related thing that might actually lead to money, that’s not just me sharing freely. I get caught up in because I’m so like antit transactional relationships, and anytime I ask for anything, I’m like super aware of it. But that’s one of the things I’ve always appreciated about you is just, it feels like even though there is some, like when you’re in, especially when you’re in the business world, there has to be some and I had,

yeah, there does, I know you’ve done so much, you put yourself out there so much and the, it’s hard, you know, when it comes back to like actually like getting your own expert stuff.

Brendan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, and thank you for that.

Navigating Business and Personal Connections

Brendan: Like, I mean, I [00:33:00] hope in my mind, I hope I’m doing it right, like I hope I come across as warm and I hope I come across as like, I’m just willing to be there and support folks and do the thing, right?

Mm-hmm. It’s also hard, right?

Conference Experiences and Networking

Brendan: Like the conference is a good example. I mean, Shane, another men’s, ADHD support group guy, like me and Mark Shane said to me, I think it was Saturday, he was like, I just wanna hang out with this Friday. He’s like, I just wanna hang out with you today.

Mm-hmm. And I was like, okay, but you’re following a puppy.

Like, I’m gonna be tearing all over the place. ’cause I do a hundred things at that conference and I don’t know if I’m gonna be there and I can’t slow down ’cause I’ll crash, right? Like

mm-hmm.

I’m flying on, adrenaline and hyperactivity for most of that conference just to make it through.

’cause I do so many things. And he mostly hung with me. Eventually, the next day he was like, you did ditch me. And I was like, oh, sorry. I didn’t mean to,

I ended up hanging out with him to

the next, to the next,

Aurora: I think that last day I ended up hanging out with him a lot too. So we, yeah.

Brendan: Yeah.

The Challenge of Asking for Help

Brendan: But no, like [00:34:00] my hope is that I’m throwing enough stuff out there that when I need the help, I’ll get the help. Right. Like, and I’m bad at asking for help.

Mm-hmm.

But that’s where I’m heading there, right? Like this book comes out. I wouldn’t say I’m gonna have to cash in a lot of favors ’cause that’s not how I work.

Yeah, yeah.

But my hope is that the people that I’ve been supporting and trying to help and doing things for as much as I can to various degrees, that those folks will be like, that’s Brendan, he’s doing it right. Let’s make sure that this book hits right. Like,

yeah.

And I certainly know, like Jessica’s got my back, Jessica’s gonna write the introduction to the book.

So like, she’s gonna help. You’re the gonna help Daniel help. I know I’ve got folks, the men’s a DH ADHD support group has got me. There’s plenty of people who have got my back and I know that. But my hope is that me, I don’t know, being a force for Good has earned me. Like the cred to be the one to support.

Mm-hmm.

Aurora: Absolutely. And I think it has, but that’s one of the things I think where we connect is that I [00:35:00] sense that feeling of like, you have to over give to feel like you’ve even earned the reciprocation, which I totally get, but Yeah, there’s also that when you’re navigating parasocial relationships or even in personal relationships where you’re someone who’s generally giving and open and accepting, and you don’t wanna purposefully exclude anyone, but you also have limited internal resources.

Brendan: Mm-hmm.

Aurora: So that’s one of the reasons why I was so, so grateful for you at that first night of the conference because it really did help start my conference in a way that made me feel more connected. And I know that you’ve got so much going on that it really meant a lot to me. I just wanted to share.

Well,

Brendan: yeah, I mean, I’m glad ’cause I definitely didn’t feel like I did it right for by you. Like I absolutely didn’t feel like I spent enough time with you or connected to enough people or did anywhere near enough. So to hear that I did is good [00:36:00] because it lets me reframe like what I’m doing and how that works,

Aurora: yeah, exactly. Well, and that’s where I feel like I relate to you in that way, that we, I think our perceived value versus what other people perceive us is

mm-hmm.

So different, you know? So, I’m glad to share that and I appreciate that. Yeah.

Brendan: Thank you.

Aurora: So,

Reflecting on Self-Worth and Childhood Influences

Brendan: oh, and like that’s a wall of awful in itself, right?

Of like facing what our actual value is versus what we think or don’t think it is.

Mm-hmm.

Because that’s all coming from childhood, right? That’s come coming from like being the kid who, on my end, being the kid who moved between fourth and fifth grade and had to rebuild this whole social structure. And then fifth grade was elementary school, sixth grade was middle school.

So I had to rebuild again a year later with no foundation. And also being the kid with a DHD who was making mistakes all the time and didn’t understand half the things you’re supposed to do, and all of that makes you feel like you’re not good enough.

Mm-hmm.

And then you’d get to adulthood and even when you’re a [00:37:00] well-respected and well-regarded person in your industry.

You’re still like, but I’m just a dude in his basement with a podcast. Like I don’t

mm-hmm.

I don’t know how cool I am book deal with one of the top five publishers in the world and you’re like, oh, I guess maybe, and you’ve got people who you think are amazing, present company included that are like, Hey, I just want to talk to you or spend time with you or like, have a chat over Zoom and you’re like, okay, maybe I did something right.

And

Aurora: you have people talking about you behind closed doors all favorably. So

Brendan: Yeah. Hopefully

Aurora: big people.

Brendan: I mean, hopefully, but that’s, I referred to it as middle school, Brendan. Right. Like the kid in middle school who didn’t know how to get out of his own way.

Mm-hmm.

And could barely make progress going forward.

He’s still in me and he still talks and he still has a voice and he doesn’t get it.

Aurora: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well you’re very much appreciated. And that actually brings up to me one of the things that I [00:38:00] mentioned at one point is that I’m going back to work full-time in school next year.

Transitioning Back to Full-Time Work

Aurora: I’ve been three days a week for many years.

So it’ll be interesting. But on that note of transactional relationships, what I realized is that in some ways it’s actually gonna free me up to focus on the things that I really love about the business without worrying about it somehow sustaining me financially. And so, for me, I think that that’s gonna be a good thing because I’m one of those people that just wants to share stuff.

But anytime it comes to the paid stuff, I’ll put it out there once and be like, oh yeah, I made this thing. And then

mm-hmm.

It like fades into the ether and like. I mean, that’s even true of some of my free stuff too. Like all those videos that I made during the pandemic, like the one I did with your story.

Yeah. I need to share those again because they’re interesting stories. There’s a reason I picked those stories and it’s a different way of consuming the stories.

And so, I [00:39:00] know you used to work in the school setting and have actually managed to work your way out of it. I would love to hear like in that transition, how you navigated when you were kind of in that transition of working in school and trying to

Brendan: Yeah, so that was, some of it is I am married and my wife is wonderful and has a good job.

Like some of it is, we had a financial safety net, right? Like we were able to make due on just her salary for a little while. ’cause I, my career as a teacher ended. In one year. It was a really hard year. And the stuff I do on Facebook with today’s awesome.

Mm-hmm.

This is the origin of today’s awesome.

Mm-hmm.

A Year of Major Life Changes

Brendan: So in one year, my mom got sick, my career as a teacher ended, my mom died, and then my car burned down while I was on the highway. If I had been in a car wreck, I probably would’ve become suicidal, like real talk. Mm-hmm. But when your car, when you’re driving down the highway and all of a [00:40:00] sudden you hear boo and your hood pops up and fire shoots out, out from either side, and then it goes back down.

Like it didn’t pop up all the way, like the middle of it pops up and fire shot out of either side, and then it went back down to normal ness. And I was like and then I felt like I was driving through mud and it made like slowing down noises and I pulled over.

Mm-hmm.

And inside of three or four minutes, there was a 50 foot pyre of flame coming off the front of my car.

Mm-hmm.

And it burned down. And that was like. I felt like that was a message, like a car wreck. I wouldn’t have felt the same way. I would’ve been like, this is my fault because I must have done something that caused the accident. ’cause I have a DHD, right?

Mm-hmm.

But when I didn’t do anything, it just, my car blew up.

Or my engine did. It was like, what am I doing with this? And at the time I was pretty depressed. There was other bad stuff that happened then too, but just doesn’t rate career ending, mom dying, car burning down. Like those are. I got a really bad case of poison ivy too, but who cares? I remember standing on the side of the highway and [00:41:00] going like, I feel like

this is a message like I feel like the universe is trying to tell me something, but I also don’t feel like the universe hates me. Like that doesn’t seem true. I don’t think I’m the kind of guy that the universe hates. Reference what you were saying earlier.

Mm-hmm.

And so I was like, I think I need to stop looking at the awful and start looking at the awesome.

And that was what happened. Like then I made this change for years and years and years. I posted today’s awesome every single day. Now I’m not on social media as much.

Mm-hmm.

But that was the deal was like every day me looking for what’s awesome about today. And I got to the point where I was like, you can gimme anything.

I’ll tell you the awesome in it.

Mm-hmm.

Find the awesome and the awful. And I still can do that. And so during that time I was like, I was unemployed and rebuilding. Like I went and got a second master’s degree and started looking for guidance counseling positions. And I got a job, I did some mental health work for a little while, left that company.

’cause all of a sudden no one had health insurance anymore and that’s not good business practice. So I bounced, went and become a special education teacher for about a half a year at the second half of a school year. [00:42:00] They couldn’t hire me for the next year ’cause they didn’t have the right licensure.

’cause I’m a guidance counselor, not a special ed teacher. And so I was like, now what? And I ended up moving to A DHD and I was sort of dabbling in it the whole time from when I left teaching all the way through the master’s degree program and all the way through the mental health and special ed stuff.

I had been playing with it and thinking about it. And so I just kind of went in with both feet when I didn’t get that special ed job. And it took a little while. Like it took a while to build up to, this feels like a real job. I only. In the past couple of years started making more money than I would’ve made if I had stayed teaching.

Mm-hmm.

And even then, I don’t know that I would necessarily be making more money than if I had been accruing experience in years of service and that kind of stuff. Yeah. I might still not make as much now. I do. ’cause the book deal, like

Yeah,

the book deal trumped every year I’ve ever, I’ve done

Nice.

But but no, it was a lot of working and scraping and going and trying and becoming comfortable with how much money to charge.

Mm-hmm.

[00:43:00] Right? Like, people can hear what my fees are ’cause whatever.

Mm-hmm.

At least this is where they are now. They may go up, I don’t know, but I, I started at like $75 an hour and then I went up to a hundred and that felt like a big jump.

Mm-hmm.

And then I went up to one 50 or no, 1 25 and then Covid hit.

Oh yeah. And

then that made things a lot easier ’cause I was homeschooling my kids.

Mm-hmm. And

I was like, how much. Do you have to pay me to get me to not spend time with my kids? Like that became the math and I was like, $200 an hour, like done.

Right. And I’ve been at 200 since and then I, when I do workshops, I charge $500 an hour.

Mm-hmm.

And that was because I talked to a, one of my professors and he was like, well, this is how much you go, you, you charge.

Mm-hmm.

This is the going rate. And I was like, okay, cool. Then $500 an hour.

Mm-hmm.

And I’ve gone up since then.

Like now I just, the stuff I’m doing now, I’m getting a thousand an hour in the last two things that I, that I deals that I signed. Nice. But that might [00:44:00] go up and down. I don’t know if that’s a realistic number or not. ’cause I haven’t booked enough things with, at that price.

Mm-hmm.

But I also have a book coming out and like, who knows when the book comes out, that’s,

yeah.

I’m gonna be in a different level once the book comes out, if it hits, if I do it right, I’ll be at another level. Right. And all those numbers will go up and change. So

that’s kind of the thought process. And it also depends on who needs help and what does that help look like? And if I have like a school PTO that wants me to do stuff for them, I like bargain basement prices, right? Because I’m like, sure, I wanna help this population. I can do that for you.

If I get a couple clients outta a deal, great. But mostly I just wanna help. But if it’s a school or a company or something, now it’s different money. Now it’s like, nah, you can afford to pay me.

Mm-hmm.

Because the value you’re getting is gonna exceed what I’m charging.

Yeah.

That’s not true for like a PTO kind of thing where you’ve got a handful of parents there and stuff.

Mm-hmm.

So that, that’s all part of the process. And there’s things I could be monetizing that I’m not, I could have commercials on the podcast or something like that. [00:45:00] The parent groups took me a little while. I’m still under a thousand. I’m at nine. 9 76, I think for the parent groups for eight weeks.

Mm-hmm.

Twice a week. So it’s like, that’s pretty cheap compared to most things. And I probably have to raise that.

Mm-hmm.

But like that, I landed there before Covid and then Covid hit and that distracted me. And I don’t think your audience knows, but during that time, my son was diagnosed with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

It led to him being hospitalized for three months, shut our family down for like a year and a half. The podcast still hasn’t recovered. Like I was going weekly. I have not posted weekly since then. Yeah. And that was three years ago. Yeah. He’s better now. Like he’s doing great now. He sophomore in high school?

They both, I have twins. They’re both sophomores in high school. Yeah. They’re both doing great now, but it was a rough, really hard several years of like Nate’s, OCD and then my dad had health issues and I was doing the sandwich generation pretty significantly, which led to burnout and recovering with soft fascination, so,

Aurora: yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mine’s 11th grade too and we had a [00:46:00] rough time of it. Almost dropped outta school several times this year, but they’re actually doing much better since they started driving. Like that autonomy just made a huge difference. Probably also getting your girlfriend, but just that like, the autonomy of being able to drive and, wanting to try to get a job, which is hard in this current market.

So that’s another reason why going back to work full-time is gonna be good.

Rebuilding After Burnout

Aurora: I do wanna circle back to the burnout thing because I think we both experienced some pretty significant burnout mine during the pandemic. So for me, staying part-time as long as I did was only possible because my dad owned our property.

And so he didn’t really, like, he appreciated my work. Both my parents have been supportive. And so, I stayed part-time, longer than I probably would have if not for that support and just living very frugally. But you know, having a teenager who’s driving and insurance and all that is a whole different, set of, well, yeah, it was a little bit of the pandemic getting covid and everything, but also, do you even know that my [00:47:00] ex transitioned gender?

Brendan: I do. Yeah. Okay.

Aurora: Anyway, but that, you know, we’re like family now. They’re up in Seattle, but they had a really dark dark period and it really brought up a lot of things that had been suppressed, so.

Mm-hmm.

It was like a different person every day.

And so on top of the pandemic stuff, I also had this person that I cared about who was just like an entirely different person, sometimes multiple times in a day.

Brendan: Mm-hmm. Wow.

Aurora: And so I had a lot of stuff that happened at once where we left the property, and then the following year the school that I had been at for 14 years, and I didn’t, I actually was in that school longer than any of my, either of my long relationships.

And I realized after the pandemic that there was a lot of underlying like kind of. Almost passive aggressiveness, like just very much. They liked to have things neat and tidy and they didn’t like messy conversations. And they were uncomfortable when I was a little too open and I realized like I was masking more than I realized in that setting.

I stayed [00:48:00] because it was predictable, but after the pandemic not as predictable. And so I was kind of forced to move because they got more time than I had, so they got more than three days a week. And so it was a natural opportunity to leave. And even though my current buildings had a lot of stressors going on, it wasn’t aimed at me.

Mm-hmm.

 I got a lot of appreciation from the from the admin, which was interesting because the other one I’d been at for 14 years, I don’t know if I ever heard a word of praise which is wild. It’s wild because like every other place that I was at, I got so much praise and even at the district level.

So it didn’t even occur to me. Until like the end, I was like, oh, that’s interesting. So we moved and the same year we officially separated, although we were done long before that. And my new job, I mean new buildings. So it was like a lot of change at once.

But last year was really just letting myself do [00:49:00] whatever I felt like doing because I just couldn’t, that whole summer was just recalibration. And then this last summer I started to finally kind of get that creative juices back and I’m starting to like, feel that. And, but a lot of, for me, a lot of the part that goes back to the rest that’s actually restful is that that unstructured time when I could be working on various other things, it’s hard to focus on.

What it is that I need to focus on and I have resistance to the things that I think I should do versus the things that you know, but I know you and that’s

Brendan: okay. Mm-hmm. That might mean that, like, think of it like a health bar and a video game, right? Mm-hmm. Like if you health bar’s really low, you’re gonna be much more careful and not take risks.

’cause you could die right in your video game. But when the health bar is going up, once you’ve got enough, now you can play the game the way you would typically play it. But that doesn’t mean your health bar’s [00:50:00] full, right? Yeah. So you might be in a situation where you’ve recovered enough from the burnout that you can mostly play the game the way you would typically play it.

But when you have downtime, turns out your health bar’s not totally full. And so you don’t have the space in the holes to do stuff. Maybe use that time to fill your health bar more instead of doing the things you feel like you should do that aren’t necessarily restorative. You might find that you’re at like 85% restored and that 15% that’s still empty.

That’s where, oh, I’ve got 20 minutes. I could do, the dishes or something, or I could bake a cake or something, and you’re like, mm-hmm. I feel like it. Yeah. ’cause you’re actually at your limit. You need to refill that last 15% or even 5% of that. And then when you hit a break, you can be like, oh, you know what?

I do feel like mm-hmm. Doing whatever the thing is that you feel like doing. [00:51:00]

Aurora: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That’s true. And part of the thing for me is I think, because a lot of the things I feel like I should be doing are on a screen, but if I’m not in a point where I can focus on it mm-hmm. Then I’ll get sidetracked by the things that I shouldn’t be doing on a screen.

Brendan: Yeah. So just do something else.

Aurora: Yeah. You

Brendan: might, you might even like, ’cause I’ve been there and I found that even just a week or two of letting myself recover in the empty holes.

Mm-hmm.

All of a sudden now I can do stuff on the screen and be responsible with it and

Aurora: mm-hmm. Not get

Brendan: distracted and all those kinds of things.

Aurora: Yeah, absolutely. So I’d love to hear a little bit more about your journey back from your own burnout in terms of what helped you.

Brendan: Sure, yeah. And then I have to wrap up soon ’cause I’ve got a client to call.

Aurora: Yep.

Brendan: So I got like five minutes.

Yeah.

Strategies for Recovery and Self-Care

Brendan: Yeah, so I very intentionally put myself back together using Maslow’s hierarchy of needs.

I very deliberately was like, okay, I need to focus on my [00:52:00] physiological needs and my safety needs and. That takes precedence and then I’ll worry about belongingness and love and connection, all that stuff. And then I’ll worry about esteem and like, I don’t even know if self-actualization is really a thing for people who aren’t millionaires.

But so that was like my deal, right? And that’s a big piece of where the wood stuff came from, was like, I’m gonna go walk in the woods. Mm-hmm. ’cause that’s physiological, right? That’s getting my body moving and pumping the blood and all that stuff. And I got, I wear like work gloves so I can do pull-ups on branches and pushups on the ground and all that kind of stuff without worrying about cutting or goofing up my hands.

Mm-hmm.

And I eventually got that 40 pound bag like sandbag that I would carry for some of the walk.

Mm-hmm.

And I li I would listen to me, I still do, I listen to music that like, is restorative music for me, the stuff that I like. Mm-hmm. So like a lot of nineties hip hop and Def Leppard and Van Halen and that kind of stuff.

Tribe Called Quest. Mm-hmm. House of pain. And that did a [00:53:00] lot, like every, just about every morning for a long time. I was like, as long as the weather cooperated and I started this process when the weather was good I would do that. And the, and also the woods is like safety, right? Because it’s like calm and peaceful and what I now know is soft fascination.

But at the time was like safety. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And communicating more clearly with my wife and in intentionally taking a step back from my kids ’cause I was so enmeshed with them for so long. Mm-hmm.

Between covid, like especially homeschooling them during Covid. Mm-hmm. And then all the stuff that went on with Nate.

And then rebuilding my relationship with Gavin because I had to, I was the one doing running Point on Nate, so I didn’t see Gavin as much. So then I. Spent time with Gavin. And then my, eventually my dad got better and that meant that I could put some of that time down ’cause I was going to my dad at least one day a week.

Mm-hmm. Which means that day is gone. Right. I’m not doing anything. And my kids eventually didn’t need me to pick ’em up from school anymore and I [00:54:00] gained some time there and I needed that time, that extra couple of hours. Like now they can take the bus to school by them without it being problematic and I don’t have to pick them up from school.

They can take the bus home and there’s almost an hour on either side of the day that I have to do stuff with and they can come home and do homework and I don’t have to be upstairs anymore. So like that frees up space. So those are kinds of the ways that I did stuff and I started tuning into my values and what are the priorities that I want to take, right?

Like I came up with, I don’t know that anyone, I’m sure someone else has defined burnout this way, but I haven’t seen it. So, but my definition of burnout is when you exist in a state of anxiety for so long that it just becomes the water you swim in. So anxiety doesn’t motivate you anymore.

Mm-hmm. Like, that

was my experience of burnout as a guy who usually could activate with anxiety.

Like anxiety’s the only thing you could burn for fuel and wind up with more of it when you’re done.

Aurora: Mm-hmm.

Brendan: I got to the point where I couldn’t burn anxiety for fuel [00:55:00] anymore.

Aurora: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. ’cause

Brendan: I was just always in anxiety. I was ev every day all the time. So it didn’t motivate me and I had to figure out how to motivate myself in a different way, which ended up being my values and learning how to do that.

Mm-hmm. And then working with the Maslow hierarchy of needs stuff and all those sorts of things to deescalate my baseline anxiety so that it was at a more reasonable level. And that eventually I could burn it for fuel. Again, I, it’s not as reliable as it used to be. Like I have a book due July 1st and I’m kind of like, eh, I’m fine.

Yeah. Or whatever. Like I’m not, I have no pressure about that and I really should, like, it’s not good that I don’t have any pressure about that. ’cause it makes it harder to activate. But I also, if I look at it from a motivational perspective and I’m like, no, I have a book due, that’s awesome. If I look at it that way, instead of the anxiety pushing me towards getting this book done, I have to use.

The draw towards, like, I need to be more, it’s better really moving towards it then

Aurora: which is better. Really as Right.

Brendan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it’s not how I’m used to operating. Right. Yeah. I’m used to, [00:56:00]for most of my life, the anxiety pushes me somewhere. Yeah. As opposed to the like goal being the thing that draws me towards it.

Yeah. So that’s kind of how it all worked out. And then the healing from the burnout was spending time with my wife. My wife and I started dancing again, which was helpful. That was good. Yeah.

Yeah.

My sensei kind of helping me out and guiding me through stuff and giving me a break and not making me take a black belt test when I couldn’t.

And now I take it in December. And then spending time with friends and making an effort to do that and combat male loneliness by playing Dungeons and Dragons and watching wrestling shows and

mm-hmm. Dumb

stuff, board games though, and being more mindful of like, I’m having a good time hanging out with my friends and let me kind of sit and be glad that this is happening and be mindful of the benefit of that.

All of that stuff was restorative.

Aurora: Yeah. Awesome.

Final Thoughts and Encouragement

Aurora: Do you have any final thoughts you’d like to share before we wrap up?

Brendan: Just like sort of like the crux of this is that stuff is hard sometimes and [00:57:00] that doesn’t mean it’s not worth doing and that doesn’t mean we can’t keep moving forward.

It just means that stuff is hard. And Alan P. Brown who does the a DD Crusher stuff

mm-hmm.

When I was in the middle of the stuff with Nate. I was talking to him about it one day and I was in a mastermind that he ran and I was talking about all the stuff that was going on.

He was like, yeah, it sounds like you’re in a really hard season. And like, it was just a thing he said, right? He says that to everybody. I’m sure. That’s just part of his model. But it really meant a lot. ’cause that word season meant this is temporary seasons change. Mm-hmm. Right. And it helped me see the other side of it.

And that’s for anybody listening that’s in the heat of it, in the depth of it right now, for whatever reason, like it’s a season and seasons change and it might be a long season, might be a short season, but it’s gonna change eventually. And the hope is on the other side.

Aurora: Absolutely. I had a little moment with my kid the other day where they’re like, I think I’m in one of those phases right now where everything’s irritating me.

And I’m like, oh my gosh, you just acknowledged it as a [00:58:00] phase. Because even up to like a couple months ago it was, everything is awful. Everything will always be awful. What’s the point? And just that tiny reframe was like, oh, I think I’m in one of those states again. And then they were able to pull themselves out of it more because they didn’t see it as a permanent state.

Brendan: Nice.

Aurora: Yeah. Absolutely. Awesome. So, well, thank you so much. I definitely am glad we had this conversation because it touches on so many of the things I’ve been exploring and I know we’ve gone through some similar journeys recently. It was great to have you.

Brendan: Thank you for having me. And it’s nice just to talk to you.

Aurora: Yeah, absolutely. I know I was kind of like, well, I mean, we could record it. Or we can not, but we might as well record it because it addresses things. A lot of people are going through right now, I feel like there’s just been the, a universal burnout and then mm-hmm.

You know, current events have added to that. And even in my in person, I’m hoping to do a couple panels on healing in times of burnout and community care and stuff. And so it’s [00:59:00] all very relevant, so thank you very

Brendan: much. Cool. All right. Bye. Bye.

Outro

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