* Rough Transcript *

Ep. 277

Introduction to Embracing Intensity

Heather: They kind of get you okay with just getting scraps of love when you deserve the whole damn cake.

Aurora: Welcome to the Embracing Intensity podcast. I’ll be sharing interviews and tips for gifted, creative, twice exceptional, and outside the box thinkers who use their fire in a positive way.

Meet Aurora Remember Holtzman

Aurora: My name is Aurora Remember Holtzman. After years of feeling too much, I finally realized that intensity is the source of my greatest power.

Now, instead of beating myself up about not measuring up to my own self imposed standards, I’m on a mission to help people embrace their own intensity and befriend their brains so they can share their gifts with the world through the Embracing Intensity community, coaching, educational assessment, and other tools to help you use your fire without getting burned.

You can join us at embracingintensity. com.

Hello.

Navigating Healthy Relationships

Aurora: This week, I get to share the Q and a part of our call on navigating healthy relationships with Heather Borman Morris. It was a timely discussion for me, reflecting on a recent encounter. I just had and super helpful in what to look for. Navigating new relationships myself. You can find the full discussion in our guests, call library and membership.

Upcoming Events and Courses

Aurora: This month, I’ll be speaking on gifted and 2E Assessment for adults in preparation for my befriending, your brain self assessment course coming out, hopefully in November.

It’ll be Q and a and discussion. And if you’d like to explore the topic ahead of time, you can find more information on episode 2 36 and on my blog post about. Gifted and twice exceptional assessment for adults as well as one on thoughts for parents.

As I prepped for my new course and launching a coaching group in the new year. I’ve posted a few new products in my planner club, including a stress processing journal and have the rest ready to go for the year.

You can access everything and support the podcast through the embracing intensity membership@embracingintensity.com slash join. Enjoy.

Welcome, everybody.

Introducing Heather Borman Morris

Aurora: I am super thrilled about this call with Heather Borman Morris, who I met years and years ago when we were both newer podcasters. And I just was looking for speakers this year and circled back and she just put out a book. On surviving narcissistic abuse and a podcast with her husband.

So the timing is excellent for me. And I actually have a list of questions that came up from other people that couldn’t make it to the call. And we’ll be glad to see your questions as well.

I’m going to start with some questions in the chat, and then I am going to open for a full discussion after that. So, I’m going to start with some of the questions we had ahead of time, and then, if you guys have questions, put it in the chat, and I’ll ask those as well.

Understanding Narcissistic Abuse

Aurora: So, the first question is, tell me a little bit, Heather, about how are gifted and neurodivergent people more prone to narcissistic abuse?

Heather: Sure. Yeah. Yay. Well, if it’s okay with you, I’ll step back just a second, introduce myself a little bit more. So I am Heather. I’m a licensed clinical social worker. I have a practice in western Wisconsin. Also originally started podcasting about being parents of neurodivergent children..

Heather’s Personal Journey

Heather: What that experience has been like still do that a little bit, but took a hiatus because in 2020, along with all the other stuff that was happening, I realized that actually in 2019, I began to realize that this. Relationship I had for 20 years that I thought was a good solid relationship.

Actually, I realized it was a pretty abusive relationship. And that I was married to a covert narcissist. And as a therapist and somebody who specializes in neurodivergence and trauma, it’s still sometimes blows my mind of how. It could go that long and literally did not know it. So as that realization came, I initiated a divorce and met somebody who actually is a good guy and I’m remarried now.

So yay for happy endings or happy middles. But then I started, as I was doing my own research, just trying to figure out and wrap my mind around, like, how did, I miss it for so long.

The Covert Narcissist

Heather: And realizing that there is a propensity for especially more covert types of narcissists to really target people who are full of life, who are intense.

I started seeing more and more of that connection and hearing from more of my clients about relationships that they’d been in and other things. And so, one decided that it’d be hopefully helpful to others to share my own story, because I don’t think people understand how insidious it can be and how you can be at a place 20 years in and not realize that it’s been a toxic relationship.

Most of the time you hear things like. But they’re so smart. They couldn’t like, they should have seen that. How could they not see it? Of course they knew what was going on and, you know, yay for victim blaming. So I shared my story in a book called a thousand paper cuts. If you want to know more about that, you, but my personal story, you can read it there.

And then really wanted to educate about how there is this link between Neurodivergence and a potential vulnerability for Abuse or manipulation by particularly narcissists.

Traits of Narcissistic Victims

Heather: So the way I kind of stumbled upon that was really looking at and learning what the traits are of many victims of narcissists and the traits, knowing, seeing what the traits are and knowing what I knew about just general psychological traits and social traits and experiences of 2e individuals, like they really overlap a lot.

So typically there’s like we have the narcissists that are super overt, right? And we can see it like they are out there like I am the world’s best, whatever. And they’re like full out there. But then you have narcissists, and other manipulators, they don’t all have to be narcissists, but other manipulators who are more subtle in that.

And what they actually look for is people that they can kind of live off of and thrive off of and kind of slowly suck their life out of them. So they’re looking for people who, first of all, are bright intellectuals, a lot of times are maybe ambitious, have a ton of empathy, usually are people who are introspective.

People who have a strong sense of justice, a strong sense of mercy and grace who are oftentimes ambitious, who live a full life because there’s an element of narcissism that’s very parasitic. And so really they want to do the least amount of work and get the most gain from it.

And so they latch on to people who maybe have learned. Both to maybe they’ve learned to overwork because they got a lot of praise for their accomplishments before, and that’s now their own trauma that they’re sorting through, or maybe they’re just intense people who dive into things and just do things full force.

So that’s where there’s that vulnerability and that overlap that can often happen. I mean, there’s so much more I could say about that, but

Aurora: yeah, well, that makes a lot of sense. Well, and also for me, I know I think because I always am trying to understand the other person’s perspective and, you know, with the ADHD part, I, I’m easily to question myself because of, you know, maybe did I remember that wrong?

Or, you know, That sort of thing. So I think the combination of, of trying to give the people the benefit of the doubt and understand their perspective and then questioning my own because like, well, was that accurate? Is that what I remembered? So I can see. Yeah.

Overt vs. Covert Narcissism

Aurora: Well, and you have mentioned what are the covert versus overt?

Narcissism. What are some differences between the two? Sure.

Heather: So an overt narcissist is what we typically think of as a narcissist. The person who really will blatantly lie and no matter how much proof they’re shown that What they’ve said is wrong. They’re just not going to cave the people who really, truly don’t care what other people think about them.

They will just again, be a full presence. And if it makes other people uncomfortable, they. just don’t care. Their abuse strategies then also are much more overt. So there’s the direct name calling. There’s maybe physical abuse that happens. There’s throwing things. It’s huge, outward expressions of rage.

So just very in your face. It’s overt, right? Overt narcissist. Are far more covert, shockingly, so they fly under the radar and their strategies in the beginning might not be as like grandiose right.

Stages of a Narcissistic Relationship

Heather: So maybe I should back up and say there’s typically like a three stages of a narcissistic relationship.

And this can be, I’m speaking of it most in terms of romantic relationships, just because it’s bad. And my experience and what I most frequently encounter when working with the clients that I work with. But it can be in work, a work setting, it can be with parents, it looks a little bit different, but with it can be friends.

But there’s typically three stages and the first phase is this idealization phase this love bombing phase where everything is awesome, right. And now I have the song from the Lego movie going through my head, so, sorry, my own ADHD stuff kicking in. So everything’s awesome in that beginning stage. And then there’s the devalue stage, which is where the gaslighting comes in, the belittling, the making, just making people feel less than respectful.

That’s that phase where that lies happen even more extremely just, they start to tear away at a person’s soul. And then the last phase is discard, which can be an actual discard, right? I’ve worked with people where they come home from work and the narcissist in their life has literally just moved out of the house and they had no idea it was coming.

So it can be a literal discard in that way. It could be discard in terms of like, just not giving the attention that’s needed to them prioritizing a car or a video game or something else over the relationship and how the person is feeling. So in the initial stages, that love bombing stages, the overt narcissist is going to again be like super over the top, so flying away for a weekend if they have the means or Just a lot of intense pressure to move it fast. Covert is going to be much more subtle.

So those strategies will still be there. One of the strategies that works particularly well, unfortunately with two E people is mirroring, which is where they’re trying to create this ideal image of themselves as the narcissist. And so they’re trying to live up and project who they think you want.

In a relationship, and they’re going to project that in this like every piece of the puzzle is going to fit right so mirroring is basically just reflecting back to you, who you are and the things that you’re interested in, versus actually have a very low sense of self, so they tend to adapt and mold based on who they’re around.

So an example of this, I love hiking and backpacking and I was when I met my first husband was all excited and ready and young to through hike the Appalachian Trail, which is like 2500 miles and I was talking about that. Now he showed up to the summer camp that we met at with like a suit.

So just to show you like not really an outdoorsy person had told me that he didn’t really like hiking. And then I mentioned that I wanted to through hike the Appalachian Trail. He’s like, Oh, I do that with you. I’m like, but I didn’t think you liked hiking. And he was like, Oh, but it’d be a good challenge.

And yeah, I would totally love to do that. So mirroring back right and making you believe that there’s somebody that they’re not. But then during the devalue stage, the covert strategies are also much more subtle. So it’s not. Direct name calling, it might be just more questions or jokes, right? I was just joking, but things that are kind of mean parted in their joking.

And then it would be, well, you’re just taking it. You’re just so sensitive. You’re just taking it too seriously, which, I mean, I don’t know how many of you all have heard that as a child too, right? And so then it becomes easy to become introspective and think, Oh, maybe I am just being too sensitive to this.

So then the gaslighting isn’t as extremely like there’s, they leave much more room for probable deniability or possible deniability, right? Where you kind of know that it’s off and it’s, And they’re not telling the truth, but you don’t really have the proof. There’s just enough that like, Oh, it could, Nope, I could be seen this wrong.

It’s just far more sneaky and stealthy and interspersed with saying the right words, but the emotion might not be there. Doing caretaking, but without actual compassion, which then feels confusing. There’s a lot of cognitive dissonance that covert narcissists will use. And, the image that I like to think of is an overt narcissist is like a meteor that comes down and there’s a big crater, right? And a covert narcissist is more the Grand Canyon. They got carved away little by little by the Colorado River over time. So still the same devastation, but it just how it occurs is so different.

Aurora: That makes so much sense, especially looking at the mirroring thing.

Cause I was thinking about a recent situation and it was like, it didn’t feel like overt love bombing, but it was like, Oh, they’re saying just the right things. On that note, you mentioned the love bombing part.

Love Bombing vs. Neurodivergent Intensity

Aurora: What are some differences between love bombing and general neurodivergent intensity hyperfixation and excitement? Because I know we can dive in intensely as well, but it’s not necessarily the same as love bombing.

Heather: Right. Yeah. I had told my current husband when we first started dating, I was like, you know, you’re kind of screwed, buddy.

Because like, if you do the things that you’re supposed to do, I’m going to be suspicious of them because I think it’s love bombing. But if you don’t do the things that you’re supposed to do at the beginning, then we’re not going to be like, That’s not good either. So I don’t know what to tell you. You’re screwed one or the other.

So it can get so complicated to figure out what is real and genuine at the beginning of forming a relationship and really, the biggest thing you can do to protect yourself is to take it super slow. Abusers can’t keep the mask on for too long. So they push it and rush it to get you kind of hooked in and committed really, really quickly.

Which again, is one of those vulnerabilities of those of us who are more intense because Oh, new and we’re all in right and so we have to intentionally slow ourselves down. I think one of the biggest ways that you can tell the difference is through that mirroring piece. So with my current husband, we were hiking and it was actually the first time he’d been hiking.

And I said the same thing about still kind of wanting to do the Appalachian Trail and his response was, Oh, hell no. Like, Oh, that was a good answer. I’m sorry. Hey, where they have a strong sense of themselves and it’s not just reflecting back who you are, who you think they would be. So there should naturally be things that differ between people’s interests and it’s looking for those pieces.

Love bombing in particular is usually a calculated phase and calculated strategies where they’re studying you a lot and they’re trying to figure out how can I show this person love so that they fall into it. Right? Whereas that intensity of a neurodivergent person is, it’s just excitement.

Right. And it’s just like, you’re just excited and you want to text all the time and you want to talk to them and see them and learn more about them. But it’s wanting just to learn and know the person as opposed to wanting to learn the person so that you know how you should show up for them. Does that, does that help or make sense?

Aurora: Yeah, that completely makes sense. And things like click in my head too, when I look back on recent situations.

Identifying Toxic Relationships

Aurora: So, how do you know when you’re in a toxic relationship?

Heather: The biggest thing is to listen to your body and to your gut. And unfortunately, most of us have been programmed not to do that.

Most of us just in the general population, but especially those of us who are neurodivergent, hopefully that’s changing, but for sure, when we were all little kids, it was still of the mentality oftentimes to just kind of conform, right? Like we were taught how to make ourselves small enough to be in the room.

And I mean, I worked with somebody who literally was told, well, make sure other people don’t know you’re gifted. Don’t talk about that. Right. That like, just, Blatantly told to make ourselves small and so in that process then we learn to detach from or doubt our own intuition and doubt what our body is telling us, but our bodies know before our minds do.

Because the way our brains work, we take in all the sensory information around us. And then that gets processed in our brain. And our brain decides if we’re in a dangerous situation or not. And if we are, then we flip into the limbic system and then we react. And if we’re not, then we move on.

So the first. Signs are how our body feels and really thinking about as you go close to this person or think about being around this person, how do you feel? Do you feel peaceful? Do you feel excited? Do you feel content? Or do you feel anxious? And do you feel a little like On like catching your breath or like you’re walking on eggshells or tired and exhausted.

Now, I also want to reinforce it’s a pattern of that, right? Because even in healthy relationships, there’s times when there’s a lot of stress and neither of us are in our best versions of ourselves. And so there can be sometimes like, I just don’t want to people right now.

That is different than like a pervasive pattern of feeling that grossness and that icky when you’re around somebody. So, learning how to tune back in, learning how to trust yourself, getting people around you that you trust who are truth tellers and actually hearing what they have to say. Because one thing that particularly narcissists and manipulative people can do is they whisked thinking so much that you literally don’t know what truth is a lot of times.

And so you need to have people around you that you trust who can be those truth tellers to you. So having that community checking on it. I do think to one extent if you’re repeatedly questioning, if you’re in a toxic relationship or an unhealthy relationship, that’s probably a good indicator in the first place.

That maybe you are like if it’s me only when we’re hormonal or something like that. Maybe not. But if it’s a repeated question, if you’re searching it online, then I mean, that’s already telling you that you’re not being loved. And that, you know, is enough of a red flag, I think.

Trusting Your Gut

Aurora: I’m glad you addressed the gut thing because I was going to ask about trusting your gut, but also on that note how do you differentiate between the hyper vigilance that you might have from asked relationships and anxiety versus an actual problem?

Heather: Yeah, that’s could be the topic of the next book.

Restarting After Narcissistic Abuse

Heather: Okay, so now you know and you’re out, then how do you restart, right? Like that’s so hard to dive in and start reinvesting in relationships and trusting that. So, again, I think having Truth tellers around you is super helpful. I think also it’s really helpful to take it slow so that you have that time to really reflect on it and to to space it out.

Right. So, For me, there for sure were things that Antoine, my current husband might say or do, and it would trigger this response in me that immediately I was like, Oh, he’s just, he’s actually a narcissist. He’s just covering it up. He’s just really good at covering it up. And now I know, right. And then it’s like, okay, wait, let’s take a breath.

Let’s call my nervous system a little bit. And then let’s see, as I’m coming from a more grounded and centered place, how do I feel about this and what’s the reality of the situation? So again, a lot of it is taking that time and especially when we have trauma from the past, it’s doing those things that help to just re ground us, settle that hypervigilance and that anxious response, and then be able to reflect on it.

I think another piece that is so crucial is once the relationship has developed to a place where you feel somewhat comfortable being a little bit more vulnerable. It’s testing the waters a little bit, right? So it might be, If you disagree with them, what is their reaction?

How do you feel in their reaction? If you bring up something and set a boundary, how do they respond to the boundary? Are they respectful of your boundary? Even if they don’t understand it, or are they trying to push past it? Cause somebody who is going to push past or try and push and mush your boundaries at all, especially when you’re just at that beginning.

Yep. Nope. That’s a person that you don’t need to invest more of your time and energy into. So that helps to then give that space to reflect on, okay, maybe that was just My past trauma that was talking to me. And like, actually, he’s responded really well to these situations, right? Does he give real or she or they do they give real apologies?

Do they like apologies where they say, I’m sorry, and they hold themselves accountable, and they change their behavior? So being able to Look at all the evidence and then that gives time to do some of that additional healing and differentiating your own reactions.

Aurora: Oh, yeah, all makes a lot of sense. So I have a few more questions here.

Protecting Against Controlling Relationships

Aurora: What steps can be taken to protect against controlling relationships in the beginning of a relationship?

Heather: So, the biggest step is to go slow. If it’s a good idea, it’ll be a good idea in a year, right? Or two years, or five years, or however long you need to feel comfortable. So, Especially manipulative people want to rush that relationship and that commitment level, you know, people moving in together within a week or people engage within a couple of months or then push to get married right away or whatever, they want that commitment to make it more difficult for you to leave once that devalue phase comes in.

So taking it slow, and just paying attention as that process goes again, somebody who is worth having around is going to be respectful of your time and the space that you need looking for are there times where they’re their own person, or is it all wrapped around me. Do they first share things that they’re interested in?

Or is it always the, Oh, me too. Oh, I like that too. Right. Is there paying attention to also how your body feels when you’re around them too, which can get a little confusing, especially at the beginning. Cause I mean, somebody flattering you is exciting, right? It feels good. But paying attention to that over time also, like, As it goes on, because you’re taking your time, are you still feeling that peace and that calmness when you’re with them looking at how are they reacting and responding and talking to other people around them?

I mean, ultimately, narcissists. In particular, because they have such a lack of sense of self, they really only know that they exist by creating reactions and the people around them. And whether those reactions are pleasant or unpleasant doesn’t really matter to some extent. I mean, it’s a spectrum, right?

So to some extent, the more malignant side on the spectrum, the closer to like, Psychopathy they are, then the more they actually enjoy the unpleasant reactions. But ultimately, any kind of narcissist just needs a reaction from people. So watch how they’re interacting with the people around them.

And is there any game playing or extra charmingness or other things that might show up as they’re interacting with other people too?

Aurora: Makes a lot of sense. Just funny to me, like, kind of reflecting on back and I’m sure we’ll open for discussion in a moment, but I’m sure other people can probably relate as well. Kind of things, certain things clicking as you’re talking.

Narcissism vs. Narcissistic Behaviors

Aurora: So a question I got ahead from someone who couldn’t join was what’s the difference between, excuse me, What’s the difference between being a narcissist and narcissistic behaviors or tendencies, and is there hope for either?

Heather: The hope question is always, always there, right? Especially for those of us, I think, who are maybe idealists by nature, right? We hope for change for people to change. So it is a spectrum, right? First of all, all of us have some level of narcissistic tendencies. And by narcissistic tendencies, it’s that being the center of the world, right?

And kind of almost demanding that our needs get met to a certain extent. There’s some level of that, that we all need. So it is a spectrum from normal Kind of narcissistic tendencies on occasion down to the other side of the spectrum, which is more that really psychopathy, antisocial personality is really on the other side of it.

So someone who is diagnosed as having NPD, narcissistic personality disorder, there are criteria within the DSM. They’re very skewed towards overt narcissists. I hope that that gets reframed. further iterations of the DSM. But basically when we’re looking at a personality disorder, we’re looking at that pervasive pattern that goes through their whole lives.

Hope for Change?

Heather: And no, I would say there is I’m not really one that generally speaks in blacks and whites, like That’s not me, but no, there’s not really any hope for narcissists to change, which kind of kills my social worker heart to say, and they have to want to write and a narcissist, an actual narcissist doesn’t see themselves as being problem with my ex initially, like many of us do.

I brought it to him and was like, Hey, what do you think? Do you think he could be a narcissist? He played the game. He read about five pages of the book and was like, Oh, maybe he played the game in order to keep me on the hook. Right? Like, Oh yeah, maybe I’ll go to a therapist. I’ll change. We’ll do this.

But then like, he read five pages of the book and then the behavior went right back to where it had been. There was no, and then started to say, well, he’s just really highly anxious. Well, I’m really highly anxious too. And I don’t do these things. So no, that doesn’t cut it. So no, narcissists, they just, they don’t see the need.

And another piece that differentiates like somebody who’s diagnosably narcissistic is there is that intentional Manipulation and misuse of people and people’s things property, other stuff without regard. There’s no empathy. So without regard to how that’s going to affect the other person. So it is a spectrum.

There are narcissists on the other side who still could be diagnosable but aren’t as malicious in their manipulation. So I think of vulnerable narcissists who maybe are sick all the time, or weepy a lot, or more of a dependence type of personality. But really at the end of the day, what they’re doing is still creating everybody else to focus and circle around them, and they become the focus.

So it looks different than more of that. Like malignant, gross type but it’s still narcissism.

Therapy and Narcissism

Aurora: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to, I was just having a conversation with a friend who couldn’t make it as well about how, like, sometimes therapy can actually cause more harm than good to the other partner, especially in what I’m looking at it, I feel like it can sometimes take someone who’s more of an overt narcissist and help them become more of a covert narcissist because they learn the right things to say.

Heather: Right. Yes. And that’s a really good point. I mean, especially with this question about, is there hope for them? Couples therapy with the narcissist is actually very contraindicated because they learn how to manipulate better. There’s a lot of times there’s retribution after therapy sessions.

So. Then the victim can’t be as open, right? In which case therapy can’t do anything if reality isn’t coming in. Unfortunately, a lot of therapists, aren’t as educated in the more covert styles of narcissism and so. They can appear to be caring.

They can appear to be doing all the right things. And then behind closed doors, it’s very different. Or again, they do the right things. I haven’t read all of the chats, but I saw fake empathy. They can do this cognitive empathy, right? Where they can look at how other people express empathy and they can think about how to replicate those behaviors.

That’s different though, than. Genuine empathy where we actually care about somebody and can feel what somebody else is feeling. And so, yes, especially couples therapy is contraindicated. A lot of times they will say that they’ll go to therapy or they’ll say they want to change, but that’s a cycle back to that love bombing and idealization phase to keep somebody on the hook. I mean, it’s that intermittent reinforcement. If people are familiar with that actually keeps people in a relationship longer because you think, Oh, well, we don’t know. Maybe the good is coming next.

Like they kind of get you okay with just getting scraps of love when you deserve the whole damn cake. Right.

Aurora: Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. We’re about halfway through our time, so I have one more question from someone who couldn’t make it and then we’ll open the discussion.

Similarities with Neurodivergent Traits

Aurora: The last question is just a little bit more about similarities between some of the ways different neurotypes, especially giftedness, might express themselves that may look similar to narcissistic traits.

Heather: Yes, so the big difference is really in motivation or intense, right? We’ve certainly been around people and maybe we have been those people too, who. In their insecurity, put out extra, extra confidence, right? So they act extra confident, but it’s really masking insecurity. And that’s different than trying to create a reaction in somebody around you.

So, or in giftedness, we certainly can get stuck in our rightness, right? So many conversations with gifted kids and adults. Sometimes it’s okay to just let other people be wrong. And you don’t have to tell them, just let them be wrong in their wrongness. And you can just know that that’s okay.

But there’s this like impulse to share the information and to make sure people understand, which can look potentially like narcissism or rigidity. Autism is another one that often. There’s a lot of overlap in some of the behaviors, but that’s why it’s so crucial to be looking at context that the behaviors themselves are not like they can’t be the end.

I’ll be all right. Kind of like same with ADHD. It’s pervasive. It’s around. The behaviors are in lots of different contexts. And so with autism types of neuro spicy that the behaviors might look similar because empathy shows up kind of differently in a lot of autistic people than what it might show up in somebody who is not autistic.

But there is, it isn’t a desire to control and manipulate the people around them. Right? So it’s really looking at the intent. And I don’t know if that fully answers that question, but that’s all I got for right now.

Aurora: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think too, like for me, again, with the ADHD, like I can be forgiving for like little things that may seem like no big deal one in isolation, but then when you stack them up against each other, you realize shows a pattern of testing limits, you know, testing boundaries. So I can definitely see that.

Great. Well, I think that’s it for the Q and A part. And so I’m going to open it up for discussion here.

We have about 10 minutes left. Did you have anything you wanted to add?

Listening To Your Body?

Heather: Maybe I’m backtracking, but for sure, it’s trusting our gut and there are, you know, I mean, I think the basics that we would talk about like meditating or grounding or doing more somatic type of experiences, you know.

Yoga or just anything where you’re paying attention to what your body feels like so many of us Especially if we’ve experienced trauma are kind of cut off at the neck So like we have our head and then we have our body and what we’re trying to do is build that bridge and that connection Back between them.

So I said some of it to build that awareness is to do practices that are intentionally stepping into your body a little bit more. The other piece I would say though, is I do also think, that education and information is also crucially important because it’s what helps us understand that This behavior maybe isn’t normal.

Maybe it isn’t helpful. Maybe it isn’t how everybody is. And so it’s a balancing of that, right? Of finding yes, finding that information so that we can be on the lookout cognitively, but then also building up those resources and those skills to be grounded in our own body and our own sense of self, getting out in nature, doing mindfulness exercises. It doesn’t have to be like sit and meditate for 45 minutes, but it could just, even those physical things of like a body scan, checking in, you’re sitting at your desk and you say, okay, what are my legs feeling right now? What is my shoulders feeling right now?

And just intentionally increasing that. Internal conversation about your whole being. Does that help?

And again, because many of us are taught, well, many of us are taught not to listen to our bodies and we’re taught that you know, our gut instincts are lying or too much or whatever, but then also for a lot of us, sensory input is like, Overwhelming.

And so we’ve learned how to shut that down in order to function day to day. So it does take intentional skill to find those ways to tune back in.

Aurora: Absolutely. It’s so true. And I noticed you shared some information on interoception and a link there. So I’ll make sure I’m going to go back through the chat and probably share some of those links. On the show notes when I put the podcast together.

Final Thoughts and Observations

Aurora: Wrapping things up, I would love to hear any final thoughts observations after our discussion Heather, do you have any final thoughts to share and to share with the Embracing Intensity community?

Heather: Sure. Well, it’s a pleasure as always not only to reconnect with you, Aurora, cause it’s been forever. But to just connect with other people in this great community that you have, you know, what I’m hearing is again, what, unfortunately, a lot of gross people target, which is this huge. compassion and introspection.

 And so it’s learning how to maintain who you are and uphold those pieces and also hold people accountable. That doesn’t just because we can be compassionate or understand that, okay, yes, you’ve had a bad day at work and so you’re going to be more frazzled. That doesn’t give permission for inappropriate behavior or interacting with us in a way that’s unkind.

And so learning those skills of differentiating I think are just key.

The Importance of Boundaries

Aurora: And I really appreciate what you pointed out about what Brene Brown said about the most wholehearted people are the ones with good boundaries, because that really hit me when I heard that myself, just like that, in order for you to really be fully wholehearted, like you need to have good boundaries.

And that’s a good reminder.

Heather: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And hard, hard, hard.

Aurora: Absolutely. And is there anything else that we should share with the audience in terms of the work that you’ve been up to, resources, things that they should check out and find out more about?

Heather’s Resources and Podcast

Heather: Yep. Again, my book is called a thousand paper cuts, which you can find anywhere.

And then my current husband was also in a narcissistic type relationship for 20 years. And so together we’ve, Worked together to love well and heal all of that. And we have a podcast that I will be honest has been not as consistent as I want it to be, but we’re still, we’re, we’re working on it.

We’ll get there. There’s 11 episodes out right now. It’s called starting stronger. And it’s about after you realize, and after you’re out of a toxic relationship, then what, how do you reconnect and reinvest? How do you deal with what I call faux co parenting where you have to like. Still parent with somebody who isn’t really all that interested in co parenting.

Well, so you can search that wherever you find podcasts or go online to starting stronger. com. And it’s there and please, I don’t do this work just to speak to as many people as possible, I’m here to help and support as much as I can. So if there’s any follow up or anything that you need, please don’t hesitate to reach out.

Co-Parenting with a Narcissist

Aurora: One thing I was going to say that didn’t come up because I wanted to make sure to give the people who were here priority, but I know the topic of like co parenting with a narcissist is something that came up a few times in people that I know.

So, I don’t know if you have any episodes on that or not, but if you do, feel free to share. And if not, it’s a great topic down the road.

Heather: We do I think we have a couple actually that are specifically dedicated to that and there will be many more, because, because I’m trying to do it as we speak right so, yes, I can send you the specific episodes although again.

Our catalog is only 11 at this point, so they’re pretty easy to find.

Aurora: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, and I’m so grateful for you to have this conversation.

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