269: Dismantling Patriarchy Through Play w/ Jeff Harry

Dismantling Patriarchy Through Play w/ Jeff Harry

In this thought-provoking podcast episode, Jeff and Aurora delve deep into the topic of dismantling patriarchy through play. They explore the impact of societal norms on individuals, the role of neurodivergence in challenging the status quo, and the importance of celebrating uniqueness. Through personal anecdotes and insightful discussions, they highlight the power of embracing one’s intensity and fostering connections through play. Stay tuned to gain valuable insights on creating a more inclusive and empathetic world through intentional actions and meaningful engagement.

The podcast discussion delves into the intersection of play, patriarchy, neurodiversity, and societal norms. Jeff and Aurora explore the impact of patriarchy on both men and women, emphasizing the importance of men becoming allies to women and the need to challenge traditional gender roles. They highlight the power of play in fostering connection, breaking free from societal expectations, and celebrating neurodiversity. The conversation encourages embracing uniqueness, challenging the status quo, and fostering a sense of community and connection through play.

About Jeff

Jeff Harry, the founder of Rediscover Your Play, runs an organization dedicated to making work more enjoyable through play and positive psychology. With a strong belief that play can heal workplaces and communities, Jeff emphasizes the importance of embracing intensity and connecting with others authentically. He advocates for celebrating neurodivergence and challenging societal norms to create a more inclusive and empathetic world. Jeff’s work focuses on dismantling patriarchy by encouraging allies to women and fostering deeper connections through play.

In this episode:

  • Jeff emphasizes the importance of play in healing workplaces and communities.
  • Play is discussed as a tool for challenging the status quo and encouraging connection.
  • Aurora and Jeff share stories about the power of play to bring people together.
  • Celebrating neurodivergency and uniqueness is highlighted as a way to dismantle patriarchy.
  • Remote companionship is discussed as both beneficial and limited in replacing in-person connections.
  • The impact of societal norms on neurodivergent individuals and the need for acceptance and celebration.
  • Historical examples like the 54th during the Civil War are used to showcase the ripple effects of small actions.
  • The concept of the “cathedral effect” is introduced, encouraging individuals to make a difference even if they may not see the immediate results.
  • The Embracing Intensity community is promoted as a supportive space for intense and gifted individuals to connect and grow.


* Rough Transcript *

Unveiling the Myth: Patriarchy’s Impact on All

Jeff: The patriarchy doesn’t benefit any of us. Like you would think that it would benefit men, right? It benefits some men, but a majority of men are not succeeding in this. They’re not enjoying it. And they don’t like it as much as many women don’t. And I think that’s the part that I want to be communicating more is there’s a lot of men that want to be allies to women.

They don’t know how to be. And if we could figure out that. We could then help to start to dismantle it together because we can’t do it alone.

Introducing the Embracing Intensity Podcast

Aurora: Welcome to the Embracing Intensity podcast. I’ll be sharing interviews and tips for gifted, creative, twice exceptional, and outside the box thinkers who use their fire in a positive way. My name is Aurora Remember Holtzman. After years of feeling too much, I finally realized that intensity is the source of my greatest power.

Now, instead of beating myself up about not measuring up to my own self imposed standards, I’m on a mission to help people embrace their own intensity and befriend their brains so they can share their gifts with the world through the Embracing Intensity community, coaching, educational assessment, and other tools to help you use your fire without getting burned.

You can join us at embracingintensity. com.

Yeah. Yeah.


Dismantling Patriarchy Through Play: A Conversation with Jeff Harry

Aurora: Today I get to share part of our conversation on dismantling patriarchy through play with Jeff Harry of rediscover your play. You can access the full video discussion in the guest call library or all access membership where you can find my self regulation course, and neurodivergent planner and journal tools as well. Including my new ND relationship journal with great prompts for exploring how to support our partners neurodivergent needs together.

The Power of Play in Deep Conversations

Aurora: Something I really appreciate about Jeff is that his work dispels, the myth that you have to choose between depth and play. In fact, play helps access deeper conversations that would be harder to have without it. It’s one of the reasons I always include at least one play themed talk in my speakers every year.

There’s a lot more to dive into around these topics.

Join the Embracing Intensity Community

Aurora: And if you’d like to continue the conversation, join us in the free embracing intensity community where I’m working on encouraging more discussion. Find us at community dot, embracing intensity.com. Enjoy.

Welcome everyone.

Exploring the Nuances of Play and Patriarchy

Aurora: So I’m super thrilled to have Jeff come join us again. Every time we’ve chatted, it’s been fantastic. And we’re going to be talking about um,

Jeff: Dismantling patriarchy through play. Yes. Among other things.

Aurora: Among other things.

The World Domination Summit: A Catalyst for Change

Aurora: So, I met Jeff actually at the world domination summit many years ago. And he’d been on the podcast and he did another one on playing with your inner critic, which has to be one of my favorite topics that we’ve had so far.

And the last year or so, I’ve been seeing a lot more posts from him about playing and the patriarchy and getting kind of deep in that, that nuance of play and so I just think it’s been great. And I was really excited. Oh, world domination summit? So, there’s a guy, Chris Guillebeau, he’s an author and entrepreneur guy, and he did it for 10 years in Portland. The last one was rescheduled due to the pandemic and I couldn’t make it because of a move. But they all gathered in Portland and they had speakers and then they had these like informal meetups.

So you could just decide to have a meetup one day and meet a bunch of people around this topic. It was very cool, but yeah, they don’t do it anymore. I don’t know what they’re doing now, but.

 So I’m going to go ahead and let you guys introduce yourselves. So Jeff knows who he’s talking to, and then I’ll let Jeff kind of get things started and we can start the conversation.


Aurora: Awesome. Glad to have you.

So we’re going to start out with kind of more Q and a type thing through the chat, and then we’ll open up for more verbal discussion. So welcome everyone. I’m going to go ahead and mute everyone except for Jeff and let you introduce yourself, Jeff. Welcome.

Glad to have you!

Jeff: Oh, awesome. Oh, I’m excited about this.

Let’s see where this goes because I have no idea where it’s going to go. Do this.

The Role of Play in Healing Workplaces and Communities

Jeff: So Jeff Harry. I run an organization called Rediscovery or Play. The whole goal of it is to make work suck less through play and positive psychology. But really, really it’s about healing workplaces. And I’m only kind of doing it as an experiment because I have this strong belief that play heals workplaces.

Like the world, right? Like it heals communities. It can heal division. It can heal political spectrums. I’ve seen it done in many ways, and I’m happy to share the ways in which I have seen it.

Addressing the Systemic Issues with Play

Jeff: But the reason why I tie it to patriarchy you know, and like, and capitalism is because like, for all of us, The vibe is it’s not working like none of this is working right like work isn’t working You know how we live isn’t working many of us like I fly all around the country So we got 50 to 60 places a year maybe more.

People don’t want to work anymore people feel exploited used Taking advantage of And that’s just in the working world, right? We’re not even just talking about like healthcare and education and all these things that are supposed to solve problems and instead cause all these problems. And it’s really interesting.

The Neurodivergent Perspective: Finding a Fit in the System

Jeff: I love that everyone shared, you know, their various like neurodivergent perspectives because my friend Maddie and Lauren Yee of This Us Now, we’re running a neurodivergent workshop yesterday that I was helping to support and film. And There’s so many of us that just don’t fit within the system, right?

That just We’ve never fit, but now it’s so blatant, especially after the pandemic. And I love, I think it was that was sharing. She’s like, I’m creating a whole new curriculum for myself. The amount of people that I’ve heard do that, where they’re like, I’m letting go of all the West certain, you know, perspectives or the Western teaching methods and going completely against all of this and making something brand new, just to revolt against the fact that none of this.

the current society and how we’re running stuff is working is a story that I’ve heard so many times.

Revolutionizing the Status Quo with New Ways of Working

Jeff: And I’m trying to think of the, you know, you see this a ton on TikTok where now people are almost like revolting against the system in a variety of ways, whether like coming up with new ways of working, coming up with new ways of like, you know, surviving, Or just being like, I’m now moving to a farm and who else wants to come with me?

So that’s like, that’s the context in which we’re walking into where you have, you know, some people still go into Olive Garden and watching, the new local news at night, you know, and totally bought into the system. But a majority of us that are like, You know, I can’t do what my parents did.

It’s just, it’s not sustainable. It wasn’t sustainable then, but now it’s blatantly not sustainable.

Play as a Tool to Dismantle the Patriarchy

Jeff: And this is where I feel play can start to dismantle this fragile pale male, stale patriarchy that we have.

Aurora: Awesome. And, I’m just looking at the chat.

Learning Through Play: A Bottom-Up Approach

Aurora: Oh, yes, I’m a bottom up thinker. And when I learn in that way, it goes way faster for me to understand something. And by then I suddenly go so fast that other people cannot follow me anymore. Yeah, I can see that for sure.

So, Circling back, you had shared an article when we kind of started this process and you shared a story that was relevant and how it tied to all of this.

Christmas in the Trenches: A Story of Humanity and Play

Jeff: Oh, you’re talking about Christmas in the trenches.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. So for any of y’all that aren’t familiar with the story, it’s one of my favorite stories about play is play was able to stop a war for like a day. And it happened in World War One. And it was probably in within the first three months of World War One. There was this like battleground that had just been at a stalemate for like three months and it was the battle was between Germans, Irish and the English.

The Irish and English against the Germans. And most of the soldiers were like 18, 19. And if you, you know, if you ever did any like historical analysis of World War One, a lot of people didn’t even know why they started it. Like, it was very confusing for the first one, you know, so especially for the soldiers, they didn’t really know why they were there.

And if you can imagine being 18 or 19 years old, like, stuck in this, deep mud in the trenches I don’t even know where exactly they were yeah, like, in no man’s land, and On Christmas Eve they’re just sitting there, it’s nighttime, and a German soldier actually started singing Silent Night in German.

And then apparently this Irish bagpiper, or Irish guy, you know, started playing some instrument that, like, came in unison with Silent Night and then a group of Englishmen started singing Silent Night in English over the, over No Man’s Land, right? Which was like, oh my goodness, like, okay, this is kind of random and weird, but also this is how much we want connection.

And then that German soldier came out with a white flag and came into No Man’s Land. And then so did someone from the English and someone from Ireland. They all met. I think it was not Ireland, I believe it was Scottish. But they all met in the middle and they started, like, exchanging chocolate and, like, cigars and things like that.

And it caused more people to come out and hang out, and that was the opportunity for them to actually remove a lot of You know, their fallen comrades whose bodies were just like strewn across this battlefield. And then after they did that and they were hanging out, someone brought a soccer ball and they played soccer on the field where they had been shooting at one another.

And the craziest part about this is this happened all across the line. So we’re talking about like hundreds of miles. And sometimes it didn’t work out well. Some people came out with the white flag came out and they just got shot. But the, like, the willingness to want to connect and want to play and want to just feel human again was so great that people were willing to risk their lives in order to feel human, right?

And the next day they all went back, you know, and they had also exchanged pictures and cards and all this other stuff, so that when their generals were like, alright, let’s begin the battle again, Most of them didn’t want to do it, so they had to pull everyone off the line. And then since then all military fights on those nostalgic holidays, like Christmas and Christmas Eve, because they know that they do not want to build humanity with one another.

And I found that to just to be such a powerful story because like, even at that point where you’re literally shooting at people, you know, Slay can intervene and create like humanity where you would never think humanity should exist, which is, you know, the battlefield of a world war.

and one other thing I just want to add, so I’m randomly visiting England last year because I want to see Liverpool.

That’s my team, you know, I love soccer, right? And I’m in Liverpool and I’m about to leave. And I was like, let me just swing by this bombed out church. Like everyone calls it the bombed out church. And when I went there. You know, it’s clearly a bombed out church from World War Two. But then all of a sudden I saw this statue from that battle from Christmas in the trenches.

And it’s called Christmas in the trenches because it’s a song that’s sung by this America. I mean, is it American? He might be American, but yeah. Sung by this, this singer telling this story. And when this singer used to play, he would play all over Europe. And I believe he might’ve even been playing in.

in Germany when he was playing this song a lot of people don’t believe it. A lot of people think it’s a myth and he was playing one day and there was these old group of guys that would come in at the end just to listen to the song and then they would just leave. And the last night he was playing, after he finished the song, he chased them down.

He’s like, who are you? You know? And they were like, we

were there.

Like people don’t believe it, but we were there. So like the power of that, the fact that I saw that statue at Liverpool, I was like, this is

meant to be,

oh my Godness. So I love it. This is also why I love Liverpool so much. You never walk alone.

Rediscovering Connection Through Play

Aurora: And that, that kind of brings to mind just how, sometimes when we’re removed from a current situation, it enables us to kind of bring in that spirit of play a little bit. And I think that’s, you know, with the pandemic, I think that kind of shook us out of our regular box.

And I think, trying to re assimilate and make things go back as usual or late. The same when we know it’s not

talking about kind of getting back into like, normal, not necessarily normal, but like functioning in the world that we have to function in. So like, when you have those experiences that kind of fundamentally shift how you perceive the world or how things , are moving, but then you have to like, Go back into the system that you, it doesn’t fit.

And I know this is kind of your world in terms of your training and everything that you do, like, what are some things that you found have been helpful in continuing to hold onto that that spirit of play when you’re having to deal with the real world?

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. So, I’ll answer it in a story format, right?


Camp Reset: A Unique Experiment in Play

Jeff: I found something almost as good as World Domination Summit. I think it’s dope. It’s out of Canada. It happens in September. And it’s called Camp Reset. And it’s a bunch of play people. It’s just people that are playing, and they go to this, area four hours out of Toronto for like three, four days, just all adults.

And there are only three rules to the whole camp. And mind you, they’re at like a children’s camp, right? So there’s like, you know, swimming and, you know, water slides and all, like all the things that you’d usually see at a camp. So the three rules are no work talk, no real names, no phones.

So I’ve been going for two years. I have at least six or seven friends that I have no idea what their real name is. Even now, like I just don’t even know, I don’t know what they do. And it’s great because like the, this idea of dropping ego, this idea of like being present, like not on your phone. And this idea that you’re not built around your work or you’re not built around your name is really empowering to actually connect with another person.

It’s also. Really scary because you go back to when you’re 13 or 12 because you’re like, what am I going to talk about? Like, I don’t have anything to talk about because usually I’m like, what do you do for a living? How’s the weather? Blah, blah, you know, all the boring questions, right? So we actually talk about this because on the last day we’re like, okay, Everyone gets their phones back.

And there’s something that’s really actually interesting that they do is like, or what we did is a lot of people would run around during camp and pretend to take photos with their hands. Like they were just pretending that they, and then when someone finally was like, Hey, I have my phone back. Do you want to take a photo?

Everyone’s like, No, you don’t get the point. Like, like we want to be present right now. So having to then go back into like this craziness of Toronto or New York or wherever else people were going back to, it’s like jarring. It’s, you know, it’s jarring anytime you come back from any retreat, right?

Challenging the Status Quo with Play

Jeff: So my recommendation or what I took away from that camp was you got to pick the things that you feel like like resonate and would vibe, right? So for me, I don’t ask people what they do. Like that was one of my takeaways. I don’t care. Like that’s not who you are, you know, just because he’s a software engineer doesn’t mean now that I’m going to just ask him a software engineer question.

Maybe he doesn’t want to talk about that. Maybe that’s not like relevant, right? You know, I asked now people a different question. I asked them like, what’s your mischief? I don’t know what that means. They don’t either. But then all of a sudden it creates an opportunity for people to be like, well, tell, let me tell you what my mischief is.

Right. Right. So that’s just one way, right? Like figuring out other ways in which like, okay, I want to be more present. Okay, I’m not going to bring my phone somewhere. Oh my gosh, like that’s the scariest thing having ghost phone where you’re not touching it and all the time, like, you know, but challenging the status quo.

I mean, she’s doing it right now with like what she’s learning, right? She’s doing shamanic and all these other like Things that totally challenge, totally go against everything that we’ve been told to do.

Embracing the Feminine Through Play

Jeff: You know, many of my friends are doing very similar things, where they’re tapping back into, like they’re divine feminine.

What’s interesting about play, play is much more feminine than it is masculine. It’s collaborative, it’s connected, it’s intuit, you’re following your intuition, you know, it’s all these different things. So like, even I am like, doing more programs or connecting with people in a way that is much more following my feminine in order to learn that balance.

Aurora: I was just looking at the chat here. So we got yeah, I usually always skip small talk and just start talking about what I’m thinking about when I meet new people. Yep. Also, instead of asking people, how are you? I tend to ask, how are you holding up to show that I’m interested in the real answer and not just socially expected response.

Yep. Totally. This has been a longstanding thing for me. People have been thrown off by it. One of the reasons I didn’t love living in the DC area. Is very much what I call a resume and business card town. Yeah. I have all kinds of things that could fit on a resume, but it’s not who I am as a person.

I have several friends who I don’t know what they do. We just vibe. Yeah, totally.

Jeff: Right.

Transforming Conversations: Beyond the Transactional

Jeff: It’s the vibe. And let me just respond to DC. It’s DC, dude. DC is such a transactional city, right? And my favorite play, you know, thought leader Kevin Carroll would always ask, do you want to have a transactional conversation or a transformational conversation, right?

And you can feel that. You can feel it in D. C., you can feel it in New York, you feel it in L. A., where people are like, well, what movie you’ve been on or what studio? Like, How do I get something from you? And DC is one of the most transactional ones because they’re like, which congressman do you work for?

You don’t work for a congressman. I don’t really feel like talking to you anymore because you can’t help me. Right. And it’s crazy because if you vibed with the person. If you spent more time just literally connecting with who they are, they probably would help you transactionally as well, right? That’s the most ironic part, but instead we go against this.

And it’s sad. It’s really sad because then, you know, what is it?

Addressing Loneliness and Connection in the Modern World

Jeff: The surgeon general last year said the one of the biggest epidemics in the U. S. Is loneliness. You know, right out of D. C. So, people are moving up in their career. Heck, they might even be making more money in their career, but they’re more lonely than ever.

Aurora: I really like that transactional versus transformational concept. I’ve heard it before and it’s something I realized like that’s Always been a huge problem of myself and like marketing myself because I’m like truly allergic to transactional interactions. And so like, even people at where I know, like they might have something to offer and they might be glad to offer.

I’m like, Unlikely to ask unless I’ve been able to like, it’s just,

Jeff: you can feel it, you can feel, I think it was Shia LaBeouf that was talking about this, I think at, in Oxford and he was just like, you know, there are people that ask for selfies, right? And you can feel when they’re, Asking questions to get to the selfie and you can feel when they’re just hanging out with you.

And then at the end, they’re like, Hey, do you mind if we take a photo? And you, and that’s something that’s really worth challenging, right? Like, again, this is all play. So we’re all experimenting. How do we connect with one another? How do we address loneliness ourselves, right? When we’re walking around, Talk about play.

What am I doing to, in order to create Psychologically safe space, so that not only my friends feel a certain level of safety and connection, but maybe even strangers. I go to conferences all the time. I see people super lonely all the time. I go straight up to that person. Or my friend oh, what is his name now?

I just lost his Lost it. But he does something called the croissant. The bagel is when everyone is in a circle, right? They’re in a circle. There’s no place for anyone to join. But if you open a croissant, all of a sudden another person can join. Subtle things like that start to build. A certain level of connection.


Aurora: So I think I’m going to open up soon for discussion of people want to unmute, but I’m wondering if you guys have any final thoughts in the chat to share, like in terms of on the podcast part or like final thoughts for kind of how we use play to connect and break out of those boxes.


Jeff: Well, I’ll comment on comment, right?

The Impact of Pornography on Connection and Loneliness

Jeff: She was like, porn addiction feeds on this inner cancer. I’m certain of it. Absolutely. Absolutely right now. And this is just my perspective on this, right? But there, it seems to be this massive divide between men and women. And I’m mostly talking about like straight dudes, right?

You know, where I see a lot of my friends that identify as women. doing a lot of their, they’re consistently going to therapy. They’re doing much deeper therapy. They’re doing somatic therapy. They’re doing all these things to improve in like, get connected to who they are. Right. And then the reaction from, A lot, not all straight men, right?

But a lot of straight men is instead of being like, Hey, you know, being that now I’m not like the breadwinner and that, I can’t just use my money to be like, this is why you should be with me because women really don’t need men anymore. At least, you know, in that way. Right? And you actually have to show up with a certain level of emotional intelligence.

You would think that most men would be like, well, then I’ll go start going to therapy. I’ll start improving in all these ways. Yeah. No, instead they’re going

Joe Rogan. They’re

doing Andrew Tate. They’re going far left and getting angry at women, which is like madness.


And it’s to the point that because they’re lacking such connection, they use porn.

As a way to connect right as a way to find some level. And obviously it’s never satisfactory, but like, it’s the easy thing to run to, right? It’s transactional and like, it gets me for a little bit, but, it doesn’t address the loneliness of men. And when you see the amount of violence, most violence is committed by men, right?

It’s because they’re in this bubble of Rogan and video games and porn and all this stuff that keeps them even more and more isolated and then they tell this story, you know, this incel story that women are rejecting men. And that story is dangerous. It’s dangerous for women. It’s also dangerous for men.

Revisiting the Patriarchy: A Call for Allies

Jeff: And this is where I kind of tie this back to the patriarchy.

The patriarchy doesn’t benefit any of us. Like you would think that it would benefit men, right? It benefits some men, but a majority of men are not succeeding in this. They’re not enjoying it. And they don’t like it as much as many women don’t. And I think that’s the part that I want to be communicating more is there’s a lot of men that want to be allies to women.

They don’t know how to be. And if we could figure out that. We could then help to start to dismantle it together because we can’t do it alone.

Aurora: Yes.

Remote Companionship: A Mixed Bag for Mitigating Loneliness

Aurora: And um, let’s see ,we have on the other hand, how does remote companion mitigate loneliness, even if two people video chat.

And just to speak to that a little bit. I feel like it’s kind of like this mixed bag having these online communication, right? Cause you can connect with people across the world, which is amazing, but it doesn’t necessarily replace in person connection. So it can be kind of a mixed bag. I would say.


Aurora: I want to make sure that we have a chance for Jeff to wrap thoughts. One thing I was going to share, if you guys want to continue some more conversation, I do have the Mighty Networks community, and I would love if you guys share your thoughts, questions.

Just asked a question in there about dealing with. The shit show that is our universe right now. So if people have thoughts on that, I’d love to hear it. But I want to go ahead and let Jeff, I know you were going to respond to that and then maybe we can final thoughts.

Jeff: Yeah.

Celebrating Neurodivergence: A Path to Dismantling Patriarchy

Jeff: So responding partly to what even wrote in here are talking about, you know, kids that sometimes are considered bad listeners or lazy or like these stories about when someone as a kid is neurodivergent, but that is not celebrated.

That’s not recognized at all. Right. And I think of, you know, talk about a way in which we could dismantle patriarchy is to begin to celebrate neuro divergency again, right. To begin to. When you see it, and you see people trying to correct it, or trying to force someone to be a certain way, be like, Actually, there’s something different about that person and we actually should be open to that.

You know, there’s this really, probably my favorite Ted talk of all time. One of the first ones ever was done by Sir Ken Robinson. And he talked about how there was a kid that couldn’t sit still in class. So the school said you, this is like back in like the sixties was like, you need to take this kid to a mental institution because they can’t sit still.

this girl. And the parents were so shocked and they took them, took her to a psychiatrist. And they’re like, what’s wrong with our daughter? And the psychiatrist was like, well, let’s just step out of the room for a second. Then I’ll talk to you about it. And before he left, he turned on the radio. He turned on, you know, a channel that was playing music.

And when they stepped outside, the parents were like, what’s wrong with my daughter? And he’s like, nothing. She’s just a dancer. Like, that’s what she is. She needs to move. Like, that is how she expresses herself. And then that little girl went on to be the creator and founder of Cats, the longest running play of all time.

And to think about All of these neurodivergent kids, as well as neurodivergent adults that have been squandered or told that they’re not supposed to be who they are. And recently when I was at that neurodivergent workshop, there was an attendee that shared how she was sitting or she was in a grocery and and a kid near her was that she didn’t know her and her pair of parents.

And the kid was like eating something and like dancing around while it was eating. And the parent was like, you need to calm down. We’ve talked about this. You can’t be moving around while you’re eating. You’re going to dispel blah, blah, blah. And she turned to her, she turned to this mother and she goes, Oh, that’s how he, that’s how he expresses his joy through food.

That’s how he has to, she’s like, I had to do that when I was a kid. I still do that now. Like there’s a movement that I actually have to do in order to feel more human. And that mother started to cry. Because she did not know up until that point. She did not know that she was squandering who her kid was.

So, the more we can actually, again, celebrate the weirdness, celebrate the difference, celebrate the uniqueness. others, that also will help to dismantle patriarchy tremendously and celebrate the weirdness in ourselves.

Aurora: Awesome. So, looking at the time, do you have any final thoughts that you would like to share with the embracing community?

Jeff: Yeah, I guess I’ll share this. I kind of like this.

The Cathedral Effect: Building a Better World Through Play

Jeff: So, a lot of people are like, Oh, well, you know, we’re never going to dismantle it in our lifetime. You’re never going to stop capitalism. You know, it’s a, fast moving train. That’s just impossible to stop. Right. And that’s just like the story that’s told everybody.

But when you think of it in the cultural perpetuity way where you’re like, Okay. I call it the cathedral effect, you know, you’re building, you’re helping to build the cathedral. Maybe I can figure out a different term, but like you’re helping to build a cathedral and you’re not going to see the end.

You’re not going to see it completed. Are you okay with that? Like when you think when you see it that way, right? You know, there’s the there I was, ha I knew recently was speaking in New Bedford, Massachusetts and I was walking around the town. It’s very like cobblestone, you know, really old. And I passed by this plaque and it was like, it was for the 54th.

And the 54th was the first black civil war. Troop that joined the army during the civil war, right? And they were all volunteers that used to be slayed.

And when they joined, they got slaughtered. Like they would, they were destroyed. Now one could have looked at the 54th and been like, wow, what a waste of a bunch of lives. That was really disappointing. But anyway.

If you think of it from the cathedral effect, after died, sacrificing for a better us or a better world, it inspired so many other black peoples, especially for newly freed slaves to join the army. And it’s swayed the entire war. That one moment sways the whole war because of this group of people that never knew the impact that they would ever have.

So that’s what I kind of put out to you. Is you don’t know what impact you’re going to have. You know, you, you may not see the end of this. You may not, you know, win the day or whatever it is, but whatever you can do in your small but powerful way to begin to dismantle patriarchy by challenge the status quo, by embracing your weird, by just simply playing.

It will matter. It just will. And when you carry it like that, then you realize you, We’ll have a massive ripple effect on all of your descendants and all these people that really want a better world.

Aurora: Awesome. Love it.

Well, thank you so much for joining us, Jeff. It’s always a pleasure to have you and get into the deep conversations.

Jeff: Thanks so much for having me. This was awesome.

Aurora: Yeah, no, thank you so much. And I’ll be sharing the part of this on the podcast shortly. And the discussion part will be shared privately.

So I’ll share that link with you as well.

Jeff: Okay, great. Thanks everyone. Appreciate you.

Aurora: Awesome. Thank you!

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